Google vs. God
Image of the Day April 22nd, 2007 - By Haochi
Yay, another Google vs. God from the North Shore Assembly of God.
Google can’t satisfy every search
Google is not omniscient, it can’t read your mind. You can only get satisfy results with good search terms.
[photo by David Cancel, used under a CC-license]
April 23rd, 2007 at 8:05 am
Awesome.
April 23rd, 2007 at 8:51 am
Maybe not, but at least Google returns your queries.
April 23rd, 2007 at 4:03 pm
Totally true. Not only does Google not satisfy every search, it took a lot longer than 7 days to complete. God did many major projects each of the 6 days, then he took a vacation! Google has been working to perfect their search for years now, yet it is a quite good internet search engine… I use it daily, I’m not going to lie…
April 23rd, 2007 at 5:40 pm
Google may return your queries but does it give you answers?
April 23rd, 2007 at 5:43 pm
Google may not answer ALL searches - but at least it exists…
April 23rd, 2007 at 5:43 pm
Yes.
April 23rd, 2007 at 5:43 pm
True, very true.
April 23rd, 2007 at 5:43 pm
Does the big “G” give answers? Jesus typically spoke in puzzling parables, eh?
April 23rd, 2007 at 5:45 pm
Haha, great one! =)
April 23rd, 2007 at 5:45 pm
just search for “the answer to life the universe and everything” an you’ll find out ;)
scnr
April 23rd, 2007 at 5:47 pm
God is either fake or unimaginably cruel.
April 23rd, 2007 at 5:47 pm
And how the FUCK does “god” satisfy every search?
April 23rd, 2007 at 5:52 pm
Google only exists because God enabled someone the brainpower to make it so. As for returning your queries, search with a right heart, tell God to reveal himself to you and wait. If He truly is omniscient, omnipresent and sovreign you can expect a reply in his time instead of yours and finally as for answers, do you want real answers or the answers you want to hear?
April 23rd, 2007 at 5:53 pm
What’s so puzzleing about Jesus’ parables?
April 23rd, 2007 at 5:54 pm
But at least Google is real.
April 23rd, 2007 at 5:55 pm
Yeah, at least you get an instantaneous response from google.
God. Not so much.
April 23rd, 2007 at 5:55 pm
Amen to # 13.
April 23rd, 2007 at 5:56 pm
Google = not omnipotent; makes it easier to find stuff on the internet.
God = onmipotent; stood on the sidelines during the holocaust.
April 23rd, 2007 at 5:58 pm
Nice to see Saugus, Ma making DIGG
I drove by this yesterday and actually laughed out loud.
Usually this place has demoralizing postings on its sign.
April 23rd, 2007 at 5:59 pm
This sign doesn’t take into account the new web, where users provide content. If God were up to speed, he would insist that the church goers were the answer, and you can have the answers in your own church too with a little XML.
April 23rd, 2007 at 5:59 pm
Well google exists, so it has that on god.
April 23rd, 2007 at 6:00 pm
there’s only one way to settle this…..
GOOGLE FIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!!
http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=google&word2=god
April 23rd, 2007 at 6:01 pm
To those who deny the existence of God: what have you done to be so confident in your assessment? Or do you simply search for that which you only want to believe?
April 23rd, 2007 at 6:01 pm
That’s the problem with our modern culture. People want “instant” gratification. Some things are worth the wait and far beyond what the realm of what you could possibly imagine for yourself. Lessons to be learned and character to build along the way. As for the “At least Google is real” comment, consider this: Gravity is real too yet you can’t see it or touch it but by some calculation it’s been made tangible and given a name.
April 23rd, 2007 at 6:04 pm
God is a cultural metaphor for the unknown. Since the unknown exists for every culture, God(s) of some kind exists in every one. The tendency for cultures to create their own unique gods should tell you that deities are a human creation that meet human needs, and nothing more.
Google is doing a fine job of being God for contemporary culture. The best to date, I’d say.
April 23rd, 2007 at 6:05 pm
Mattbatt. There’s no evidence of a god or gods.
I don’t believe in God just like you don’t believe in Zeus, Wotan or Inubis.
I can SEE gravity working though can’t I?
April 23rd, 2007 at 6:06 pm
Google: Sells advertising.
God: Gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
April 23rd, 2007 at 6:07 pm
god doesn’t exist though google does.
google owns god in everyway you can ask google what god is!
you can’t ask god what google is
April 23rd, 2007 at 6:08 pm
I don’t beve in God OR Google, what do you think of that?
The kerning on that ‘EAR’ should be a criminal offense, though.
April 23rd, 2007 at 6:08 pm
Adam. That’s messed up. A god sacrificing “himself/son” for something God could of changed/stopped anytime he/she wanted…
The pretend god has issues.
April 23rd, 2007 at 6:08 pm
To Mattbatt and those who accept the existence of God: what have you done to be so confident in your assessment? Or do you simply search for that which you only want to believe?
April 23rd, 2007 at 6:08 pm
Steve_C..
Good counterpoint, as we can see gravity working. However; I see God working all around me…even at this moment. Does that make my experience less valid than yours?
April 23rd, 2007 at 6:09 pm
Hey DJ - maybe it’s a ligature! ;)
April 23rd, 2007 at 6:10 pm
Come on! God was proclaimed dead in the 1800s. It’s been hella days since then! Get over it, already, find a real hobby. Surely subjecting yourself to self-brutalization through guilt and sacrafice can’t be fun for that long.
April 23rd, 2007 at 6:11 pm
Don’t argue with christians guys it’ll only piss you off. How can you beat someone who’s wrong but “knows” they’re right. You’ll only get pissed off. At least you can say to took the high road.
April 23rd, 2007 at 6:11 pm
Yes it does. It’s much less valid.
I see invisible naked amazonian women all around me… they’re hot!
Is that any less valid than you’re belief?
April 23rd, 2007 at 6:13 pm
The thing I find strange about the Bible and God is that all religions sort of have similar encounters. Almost all religions have a flood story (Noah + Arc) for instance. Strange that multiple religions made that up similarly.
April 23rd, 2007 at 6:14 pm
trinity… I just play with them.
I’ve seen all the circular reasoning before.
It’s even more fun when they tell you the earth is only 10,000 years old or the the Adam&Eve story is factually true, or that evolution is false.
April 23rd, 2007 at 6:15 pm
“Google is God”, or if you prefer “God is the Google.”
April 23rd, 2007 at 6:15 pm
God was so great at miracles way back when. Water to wine, parting the red sea, etc. For such an omnipotent being he sure seems out of touch. What has he done for me lately? I’m underwhelmed.
April 23rd, 2007 at 6:15 pm
Hey Steve_C. Well, as far as evidence goes, for me there is evidence of the existance of God all around me! The universe, the complexities of life, the extraordinary cell from which we are constintly learning more and more about! It doesn’t end.
And then the evidence of forgiveness and release from guilt in my personal life abounds each day. Who on this forum can prove love exists? Yet most of you have experienced it, just like most have experienced hate and disdain and guilt from others. When Christ sets you free from yourself, from that which few venture to face, maybe then you’ll know what I see everyday.
As far as proving God according to your standards, sorry, I don’t have to nor do I want to. Love, forgiveness and freedom don’t need man’s rules, facts and laws to prove or disprove their existence. Neither does God.
April 23rd, 2007 at 6:16 pm
Here is a clear answer of our results. and yet we wonder why the world is so fucked up.
http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=google&word2=god
April 23rd, 2007 at 6:17 pm
Young human minds are like unsecured win98 boxes on the net. They instantly get infected by any memes (read:religions) they are exposed to, like ducklings imprinting on a rider mower.
Religions are the botnets of meatspace.
April 23rd, 2007 at 6:17 pm
we never had a “god” vs. “microsoft” discussion
Maybe neither exists?
April 23rd, 2007 at 6:18 pm
Weebles n Pals-
Call me a fool or whatever you like but it’s a personal experience very difficult to explain to closed ears on blind eyes; however see comment #13. It’s really very simple once the answer is revealed and accepted. My own search ends with God every time. Don’t think I’ve not done my homework in considering that He doesn’t exist in my own past either.
And furthermore, to think there are not things out there in life beyond our comprehension and understanding is arrogant and foolish in itself.
April 23rd, 2007 at 6:19 pm
Mattbatt…
So then what’s the point of religion? I can find plenty of ways to give meaning to my life and the universe we’re in without appointing some creator/judge for it all.
You believe in a god that has created a universe that looks exactly like one without a god.
It’s pointless.
April 23rd, 2007 at 6:19 pm
does it matter if God exists or not? does it really matter why we are living and why good things and bad things happen? it will not change a thing. We just need to use our brains, “before” we act. and love one another. Google is just that, Google, made by man. A very usful “tool” i like using it very much, it does not mean I should worship it.
April 23rd, 2007 at 6:19 pm
Sorry Matt. But the universe, the complexity of life, etc. doesn’t prove the existence of God. People in this world want purpose and answers. The belief in a supreme being gives comfort to many, but at least science has some basis in fact. A belief in God relies entirely on faith. I would put my belief in empirical evidence over faith in a imaginary friend for grown ups any day.
April 23rd, 2007 at 6:21 pm
Sure there’s things beyond our understanding… but to make the jump that “god did it” is equally foolish. I’m more interested in honest understanding and investigation rather than just giving up at… “It’s too hard”.
April 23rd, 2007 at 6:23 pm
Haha, this is hilarious :D
April 23rd, 2007 at 6:24 pm
If evolution is always happening, where are the people/things that are not yet human or that are evolving beyond humans? If we are always evolving, seems like we should see some half-evolved things walking around here. The common response is evolution takes thousands of years which I understand but there should be signs of evoultion somewhere.
That reminds me of a while back how they wanted to give apes rights because they shared 98% of our DNA. Mice share 90% and fish about 40%. Even bananas share 50% of our DNA. Maybe we evolved from fruit.
Soure: New Scientist magazine (July 1, 2000)
April 23rd, 2007 at 6:26 pm
Steve_C
Depends on your mental state I suppose. In your mind you may be convinced of it. Far be it from me to argue your rationale having never met you, knowing nothing about you and not automatically putting you in a box because you don’t believe…for all you know, I may just be a hot amazonian woman…who happens to believe.
April 23rd, 2007 at 6:27 pm
the strongest argument I’ve ever heard used to explain the existence of god was that “how do you know the wind exists? In the same manner that the majority of people can’t explain how wind really works, is the way in which some can’t understand how God operates”
Granted it’s not a strong argument, but for some reason that always seemed to me to be a good point in explaining how some could believe in god. Personally I don’t think God himself could make me believe in his existence, but I’m part of that arrogant few that are just unwilling to accept the presence of any being greater then anything on this earth (granted I don’t hold humans as higher then other animals/organisms).
April 23rd, 2007 at 6:28 pm
Hey Weebles. Glad you asked. Let’s see, well for starters I have purpose, direction, confidence and a new life all from something you guys say doesn’t exist. I’ve heard him speak to me, guide me, forgive me. I’ve seen people miraculously healed, get out of whee chairs, walk, legs grow out, right in front of me (though miracles don’t need to happen to prove God—and many Christian’s don’t believe in miracles—and even some Christians would think I’m totally crazy for writing what I just wrote. But that’s ok). I’ve seen drug addicts, know murderors, know the hardest gang-bangers and seen their lives completely changed. Known those who would kill over $100 forgive their enemies. Known those who curse God and hate those who believe in Him turn around. I’ve seen, heard, felt, known too much to say, “ya, you’re all right. We Christian’s don’t know anything.”
Well, it perfectly ok for you to believe in nothing. Most people just want to argue to prove themselves right anyway. Me, if people want to know, they can. Its simple. God doesn’t break his Word, what has been written and established through time, culture and language—you can bank on it. Most people don’t even crack open the book, the very thing they claim is so messed up through translations. They don’t even study to disprove it!
God doesn’t have a problem forgiving and cleansing anyone who is willing and bold enough to look at themselves with truth and ask: Why am I here? Am I really fulfilled? Do I really believe the wrong that I have done can simply be covered through ignorance?
April 23rd, 2007 at 6:29 pm
Amen to #13!
April 23rd, 2007 at 6:30 pm
There is no argument, there is a reality. God is there for whoever wants to see it. the end.
April 23rd, 2007 at 6:32 pm
I think the craziest things I’ve seen were tumors and disease disappear without treatment. That just changes things inside. How else would you justify things that science says are impossible?
April 23rd, 2007 at 6:32 pm
its all fake! Anyone that knows anything knows that.
Might as well rewrite the good book to include a few references to Google so we can know that god created Google.
In other news: The word Bible is now synonymous with Google and my cat just coughed up a hair ball that looks like Noah. I’m putting stands of it on eBay in the next hour.
April 23rd, 2007 at 6:34 pm
Amen to #13!
April 23rd, 2007 at 6:35 pm
Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. It is the opium of the people.
-Marx
April 23rd, 2007 at 6:41 pm
PIC: GOD SAVED HER
April 23rd, 2007 at 6:44 pm
I would like to see 30 million species on a boat for 30 days. Where was the food kept? Some animals live by eating the others . . . and . . . if there is no evolution: how am I white and someone else black and another asian, but we are all from the same family (Noah). The tower of babble explains the language differnece, but not why I am 6 foot and almost all asians are like 5 or less. Who was Cains wife? His sister? Where did all these different looking peope come from? Space^h^h^h^h heaven??
April 23rd, 2007 at 6:45 pm
Google doesnt discriminate against me when I look at porn
April 23rd, 2007 at 6:47 pm
“It’s really very simple once the answer is revealed and accepted.”
HA! My favorite Christian mind trick: “Believe first and then you will Believe.”
April 23rd, 2007 at 6:52 pm
Haha, I luv this sign!! It’s plain and simple, but gets a powerfull message across.
April 23rd, 2007 at 6:54 pm
“If we are always evolving, seems like we should see some half-evolved things walking around here. ”
Good LORD! How the f*** would you even measure a “half-evolved thing?” Perhaps you’re a half-evolved thing yourself. If humanity manages to survive another 2.4 million years (doubtful), you may just be.
Try picking up a goddamn science book and reading it before declaring such banalities, please.
April 23rd, 2007 at 6:55 pm
AMEN #54 (”i’ve seen great things happen because of god”)
The only explanation possible for anything good happening is God.
All evil in the world is due to mankind (except those who accept God) and Satan.
God is clearly not culpable for this, because he gave mankind free will. God also does not make mistakes, so clearly mankind must experience all the bad stuff to understand what God wants it too.
God just wants us to understand that life would be much easier if we just gave up this whole ‘free-will’ BS an accepted his word without question. I sure have — too bad those damn camel-jockeys and christ-killers and commie-liberals are messing it all up. Well, at least until the rapture comes — we’ll see who believes in god THEN!
April 23rd, 2007 at 6:58 pm
may be god is just some security blanket that many who live in denial can wrap around when they are lonely.
April 23rd, 2007 at 7:01 pm
“I think the craziest things I’ve seen were tumors and disease disappear without treatment. That just changes things inside. How else would you justify things that science says are impossible?”
If an crocodile gobbled up your left arm, would you expect to have it grow back if enough church congregations prayed for it?
There is a psychosomatic element to some deceases like cancer, and there are proven scientific explanations as to how stress can negatively effect recovery. Prayer may help psych you out, but it won’t make your arm grow back, or resuscitate you after drowning, or pull a bullet out of your skull.
April 23rd, 2007 at 7:02 pm
Google does indeed provide all the answers you need… As shown Here
April 23rd, 2007 at 7:02 pm
@fearphage
Yea, 2000 years ago most people believe the sun is god. Now science came along and kinda fucked up that idea didn’t it. So may be things that is inexplicable is because science hasn’t got around to explaining it yet.
I can turn water into wine. It’s call chemistry
I can walk on water. Use a floation device. It’s call physics.
The fact that you can use the internet is thank to science, not god.
April 23rd, 2007 at 7:03 pm
I drive by this sign every day on my way to work, and whoever does the sign does a great job. Usually something thoughtful, and is rarely too “God-dy” (ha! gaudy! get it?). Overall its one of the nicer points about driving god-forsaken Route 1 every day.
April 23rd, 2007 at 7:03 pm
“too bad those damn camel-jockeys and christ-killers and commie-liberals are messing it all up. Well, at least until the rapture comes — we’ll see who believes in god THEN!”
If the rapture means getting rid of bigoted, myopic assholes like you, then I for one can’t wait.
April 23rd, 2007 at 7:04 pm
You expect Google to find you answers. Then you pretty much depend on yourself to solve your problems. Result: You get things done.
You ask God to solve your problems and then you wait. And you wait. Then you get pissed off.
Who makes the big difference then.
April 23rd, 2007 at 7:07 pm
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/
April 23rd, 2007 at 7:10 pm
Listen, guys, I work for Google now.
April 23rd, 2007 at 7:13 pm
#73 That’s part of Gods brilliant plan too! God wants everyone to be happy, and since those who reject Gods word clearly ENJOY suffering and general ‘bad stuff’ happening to them, he brings those of us who accept his word up to be with him, and leaves you hippy commu-tards down there with the rest of them to enjoy the mess you make of things.
The sad things as that just being around people of you may have already corrupted me beyond redemption, which is why I saved my wife and children years ago. I know I won’t get to see them in Heaven, but at least I know they made it — because I sent them!
Yours Truly,
S.R. Chasm
April 23rd, 2007 at 7:17 pm
Evolution vs Intelligent Design:
http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=evolution&word2=intelligent+design
Google hath spoken.
April 23rd, 2007 at 7:17 pm
What never ceases to amaze me is the number fundamentalists who tend to display significant arrogance in their arguments.
Is Superbia no longer a cardinal sin?
April 23rd, 2007 at 7:17 pm
in google we trust!
April 23rd, 2007 at 7:21 pm
#78 You are an IDIOT! Of course, it is a SIN! What you fail to understand is that God FORGIVES them for it!
In fact, the Preacher told me God would even forgive ME for sending my family to him, all I needed was another baptism — looks like I get to see my loved ones in Heaven after all!
April 23rd, 2007 at 7:21 pm
Continue this debate online. Visit my website and answer your opinion. Pass the link along.
April 23rd, 2007 at 7:22 pm
God is a mind virus. This infection propagates usually from parent to unsuspecting child. Since the child doesn’t have the proper antibodies in place yet, they are infected quite easily by this belief after the parent starts proselytizing to them. It can be very difficult to remove the infection, but the sooner an education and the ability to think critically can be administered to the victim the better. Hosts that are older in age generally have the proper mental defenses in place to resist infection although it isn’t unheard of for a human adult to become infected. This is what I’ve observed anyway.
April 23rd, 2007 at 7:23 pm
Scott R. Chasm: Dude, love the satire!
April 23rd, 2007 at 7:31 pm
I timeout trying to DNS God! I’ve lost faith ;_;
April 23rd, 2007 at 7:33 pm
suck my dick christflakes.
April 23rd, 2007 at 7:34 pm
Hahahaha…. awesome :D
April 23rd, 2007 at 7:35 pm
God gives man basic instincts and poses his laws exactly opposite to them. Cruel b@st@rd if you ask me.
April 23rd, 2007 at 8:01 pm
jesus was dead a whole 2 days. some sacrifice. whats 2 days to god since hes supposedly been around forever. actually existing human beings lose their sons forever and suffer all the pain that goes along with it and god is supposed to be special?
for the story make even a little bit of sense, the “sinless” jesus would be in hell right now suffering eternal torment in place of all those that believe in him, not hanging out in heaven doing nothing.
god makes no sense. google helps to make some sense of the internet.
April 23rd, 2007 at 8:03 pm
I just have to ask, why is the internet full of atheists, I’m a totall nerd, and I believe in god. I feel sorry for those with lost faith.
April 23rd, 2007 at 8:03 pm
The people with religious belief should be viewed as we view the few tribes that are left in undeveloped places of the world. This is an ancient way of thinking that only excels at dividing the people of the world and giving individual minds comfort. We should separate from them similar to the Amish isolation paradigm so they can linger in their fantasy existence as we observe them from afar and take notes.
Those of us in technology and science should continue to press ahead and leave these mentally underdeveloped beings on Earth as we sail to the distant stars in search of intelligent life. Preferably using the Google star search vehicle.
Maybe I could suffer their existence concurrent to mine if they were able to embrace their beliefs without rewards for their eternal soul. This sounds a little too much like kissing the bosses caboose to me.
Keep in mind that I did not saying anything against those with faith and their right to believe, only that they should be avoided at all costs.
April 23rd, 2007 at 8:05 pm
Thank god I’m an atheist
April 23rd, 2007 at 8:07 pm
From Scott R. Chasm: “The sad things as that just being around people of you may have…”
Seriously dude, WTF?
April 23rd, 2007 at 8:12 pm
Amen to #666!
God was slain by a big pink unicorn named Nimfoofoo. True story - I read it in a book!
April 23rd, 2007 at 8:18 pm
You guys are funny. Every person on this planet needs to answer two questions before they can call themselves “educated”:
1. What do you believe?
2. Why do you believe it?
The atheists/agnostics here are simply offering arguments from philosophical books that have been offered for hundreds of years (take a course in Philosophy and Religion, you’ll see what I mean). I have not seen a single argument here that’s unique or new.
So, to the people who don’t believe: why? If you can’t answer that question without resorting to what other people say, then you don’t really understand why you don’t believe. I ask the same question of the people who do believe. If you believe only because your parents taught you to believe, then you don’t really understand why you believe.
I happen to believe in God, and I have two degrees, one in Computer Science and one in Particle Physics. I have a firm foundation in science, yet I am willing to admit that science does not have very many answers. There are far more things we don’t understand than you might think. This certainly doesn’t imply that God must exist, and I’m willing to accept that some questions are still just waiting to be answered by science. But I am also willing to accept the possibility that there is a God, and that the way He functions in our lives is something beyond our ability to logically reason.
Anyhow, just know what you believe and be able to support it. This will go a long way towards eliminating name-calling in any debate. :)
April 23rd, 2007 at 8:22 pm
pizza ? no
duff beer ? no
40 black eyed virgins ? no
April 23rd, 2007 at 8:24 pm
“Google can’t satisfy every search”
Neither can God.
April 23rd, 2007 at 8:27 pm
To be honest i have gotten more answers from Google than from god….
April 23rd, 2007 at 8:30 pm
It is absurd for the evolutionist to complain that it is unthinkable for an admittedly unthinkable God to make everything out of nothing, and then pretend that is is more thinkable that nothing should turn itself into everything.
April 23rd, 2007 at 8:37 pm
Halo 3, cant wait.
April 23rd, 2007 at 8:45 pm
I searched “Life, the universe, and everything” on google and all it returned was the number 42.
April 23rd, 2007 at 9:00 pm
Now that’s interesting church!
April 23rd, 2007 at 9:14 pm
#51
Lactose tolerance is an example of recent human evolution. Most animals lose the ability to drink milk when they are young, most humans keep this ability through adulthood. This was probably caused by the raising of cattle causing a genetic disadvantage to those unable to consume milk.
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/11/science/11evolve.html?ex=1323493200&en=a2ded9bbd0241eaf&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss
April 23rd, 2007 at 9:16 pm
If you think ‘God’ gives you answers, then please…see a doctor… god doesn’t talk back, help you, or whatever it may be…these are only thoughts/imaginations you thought up in your head in which you began to believe (or still do)…so quit fooling yourself and wasting your time…you can at least prove ‘Google’. Can you with ‘God?…Nope :-(
April 23rd, 2007 at 9:17 pm
Einstein is one of the smartest scientists ever and he had a strong sense of “religiosity”…that feeling you get when you are standing next to something so awsome that you cannot comprehend and so feel humbled. Kind of like the way you feel when you try to figure out how thousands of computers pop back that search result you were looking for.
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/spinoza/
http://www.tricity.wsu.edu/~dcarrell/einstein/quotesaboutgod.htm
http://www.ctinquiry.org/publications/torrance.htm
April 23rd, 2007 at 9:18 pm
Lets not forget that with Google you can get 10 of thousands of matches for your query. Is this not unlike listening for that still small voice?
I too am one of those nerds that believe in God and am listening for that still small voice, but not on Google (and definitely not on Wikipedia)
I think I’ll go listen to some Chris Rice….
April 23rd, 2007 at 9:21 pm
so very true
April 23rd, 2007 at 9:25 pm
Wake the hell up!
God doesn’t exist.
April 23rd, 2007 at 9:26 pm
Please stop trying to convince christians that they’re wrong. If you were to succeed, thousands of preachers wouldn’t be able to put bread on the table.
All we’d get out of that is an Ex-Christian Help Fund, of which we would see infomercials late at night that would probly go something like this:
“When you call 1-800-PLZ-STFU, we will rush you a photograph of one poor ex-christian, along with their moving story for the piece of mind that for only 80cents a day, you too can help in leaving no Ex-Christian behind. Call now.”
April 23rd, 2007 at 9:35 pm
Who are all you pompous Christian assholes to automatically assume that your god is the higher power! I personally think that the Greek had it right all along and that the gods are all hangin out on Mt. Olympus. Where do you get the right to say that theres only one god. POLYTHEISM FTW
April 23rd, 2007 at 9:37 pm
The truth is religion is set forth for people not intelligent enough to understand how to behave in a civil manner. A world without religion would be great if we were all good people, but clearly we are not. The Bible gives the uneducated a set of morals to live by, unfortunately that’s what the well educated people have to deal with to avoid chaos.
April 23rd, 2007 at 9:45 pm
God and Google don’t really give a shit about you or your opinions.
April 23rd, 2007 at 9:59 pm
“Maybe not, but at least Google returns your queries.”
OMG, that’s the most hilarious thing I’ve heard all day.
April 23rd, 2007 at 9:59 pm
God is real, but unfortunately you can lead a horse to water but you can’t make it drink.
Consider this: I would rather believe in God and find out he isn’t real than not believe in God and find out he is real.
God is returning soon and I for one am ready.
April 23rd, 2007 at 10:00 pm
How many people here have seen, heard, or proven beyond reasonable doubt that God exists?
How was the bible created?
Who wrote the first bible?
Why do people believe that Mary was a virgin, when she was A) married to Joseph and B) running away from home? (sounds like they were unwed and she was running to avoid losing the baby).
Why are there so many versions of what happened, how God feels and what he wants from us, but he has never come down to set the record straight in all this time?
Why is the pope able to communicate with god, but elected by men? Shouldn’t god decide who he wants to talk to?
How many people have been killed as a direct result of religion?
How many people have died as a direct result of Atheism? (And no, you can’t blame religious deaths on them being non-believers - they died because of religion, plain and simple! Just look at the crusades!).
Why do people STILL believe in this stuff, when science has increasingly given UNDENIABLE FACTUAL EVIDENCE that it’s wrong?
I could go on, but I need a sandwich.
Bloody religious nutjobs… open your eyes!
April 23rd, 2007 at 10:10 pm
In response to fearphage, comment #51…
You obviously don’t know the first thing about evolution. Evolution is a force driven soley by natural selection, its not a magical hand changing creatures for the better. Mankind is not influenced by the same naturally selective pressures as other species. This is mostly do to the fact that humans have invented ways of overcoming characteristics that decrease our chances of survival. If we can’t see well enough, we get contacts. If we can’t walk, there are wheelchairs and prosthetic limbs. We have treatments and cures for diseases that would wipe out entire species. The Industrial Revolution, Technology, The Information Age… Mankind’s innovations have allowed the weak to live when natural selection would force them to die. Simple as that.
Before anyone discusses God, perhaps they should look into the origins of “the god theory”… and the reasons why all societies across the globe have developed god centered religions. There’s a very good explanation for it, and a very good explanation for why the god theory is no longer a reasonable explanation in today’s world. There is an excellent video on youtube that goes over this quite well…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fyerwOIwfRc
April 23rd, 2007 at 10:10 pm
And the lord said [sic] “Do what I say or I’ll set you on fire forever and not even piss on you out of sympathy”.
wtf? Religion is based on fear- fear of punishment if you don’t believe it- but the stupid thing is, it’s a story made up over 2000 years ago to keep you fools in line- and IT STILL WORKS! HA HA! YOU LOSE! THE BOOGEYMAN IS GOING TO GET YOU!!!
It was probably an April 1st gag and the joker died before he could explain it.
April 23rd, 2007 at 10:13 pm
I cant help it that the brain god gave me makes me question his existence. Why would he punish me for that? It seems that god is a bit conceited, wanting us to worship him all the time. But seriously, what difference does it make if we worship him or not? why would he send us to hell for not praising him? THAT is your kind and loving god?
1) If god only created life on earth, then why are there so other galaxies > stars > solar systems > planets?
2) Why aren’t dinosaurs ever mentioned in the bible; you’d think they’d kinda be a big deal.
3) It’s pretty obvious the world isn’t 6000 years old, but every time something from the bible is refuted by science, the christians just deny, deny, deny.
Oh yeah, I remember, god works in “mysterious ways”.
And something else I’ve been pondering over, if god and satan are enemies, and satan rules hell, and god sends you to hell for disobeying him, then why would satan punish you when you reached hell, you’d think he would reward you.
April 23rd, 2007 at 10:17 pm
Dear God,
What’s the highest peak in Africa ?
… waiting …
Hello ? Hello, God ! Peak in Africa, mate, huh ?
Oh well, http://www.google.com …
April 23rd, 2007 at 10:21 pm
I challenge any skeptic to find a ten square mile spot on this planet where they can live their lives in peace and safety and decency, where womanhood is honored, where infancy and old age are revered, where they can educate their children, where the Gospel of Jesus Christ has not gone first to prepare the way. If they find such a place, then I would encourage them to emigrate thither and there proclaim their unbelief.
April 23rd, 2007 at 10:23 pm
God: Sells social control through persuasion in the belief of an afterlife and eternal damnation
Google: Sells social control through the persuasion that coke really is the real thing.
I’m not sure which is worse.
April 23rd, 2007 at 10:23 pm
God: Sells social control through persuasion in the belief of an afterlife and eternal damnation
Google: Sells social control through the persuasion that Pepsi is the choice of a new generation
I’m not sure which is worse.
April 23rd, 2007 at 10:27 pm
Hey #54, I believe in something. I believe the bible is a crock of shit for people who need direction in life. Face it religion is good for one kind of person now. Recovering drug addicts.
April 23rd, 2007 at 10:27 pm
Sorry guys. I don’t give you answers. I only let you think so because you’re fucked in the head and weak.
Pussies.
April 23rd, 2007 at 10:29 pm
So when science/medicine says someone will die without treatment and treatment doesn’t come but they are healed some non-medical way, then what? AIDS sometimes heals itself? Tumors the size of a baseball eat themselves sometimes in a matter of days? Maybe there are scientific explanations for such things. Please enlighten me.
When family members are diagnosed with terminal illnesses but are mysteriously healed, I know no other explanation besides a higher power and doctors creeping around like ninjas treating patients in secrecy. Things of that magnitude leave me no choice but to believe. Keep in mind I’m not saying you have to. You will do what and as you always have done.
April 23rd, 2007 at 10:32 pm
“Maybe not, but at least Google returns your queries.”
jajajajjajaj, lol. Funny dude.
April 23rd, 2007 at 10:33 pm
The “He” should work for Google! And BTW # 56, where is it, I want to see it too, and as somebody said, “I’m not an atheist because they have not holidays”
;-)
April 23rd, 2007 at 10:35 pm
Your mom is muy picante.
April 23rd, 2007 at 10:44 pm
I perceive life to be logical and workable with belief in the Bible, miracles etc., and illogical and unworkable without this belief. Somehow or other an extraordinary idea has arisen that the disbelievers in miracles consider them coldly and fairly, while believers in miracles accept them only in connection with some dogma. The fact is quite the other way. The believers in miracles accept them (rightly or wrongly) because they have evidence for them. The disbelievers in miracles deny them (rightly or wrongly) because they have a doctrine or dogma against them.
April 23rd, 2007 at 10:44 pm
My own Father was diagnosed with a brain tumor. Over 40 years later he is still here and there is NO brain tumor. He never had treatment, he asked for Gods healing. You’ll forgive me if I believe. Thank You God. This is but one example.
April 23rd, 2007 at 10:46 pm
God exists thats all I have to say
April 23rd, 2007 at 10:49 pm
I find it ironic it is the tolerant atheists who are abusive and not the “pompous Christan assholes.”
April 23rd, 2007 at 10:51 pm
And is is the Christians who can write standard English.
April 23rd, 2007 at 10:52 pm
#111 Brad Taylor: So all things immoral are are only committed by the uneducated? HMMMMM - Former President Clinton, The CEO’s of Enron, Oh boy, could this list go on and on.
April 23rd, 2007 at 10:52 pm
That should be and it is the Christians who can write standard English.
April 23rd, 2007 at 10:54 pm
Here’s one that those evolutionists “forget” to include about Darwin’s findings:
http://www.carm.org/evo_questions/darwineye.htm
Even the one who is credited with the theory of evolution admits…well..he was wrong. (Ouch!)
This is the difference to what people call evolution and what God simply calls adaptation.
It is nice to know that it takes so much more effort to believe in evolution than Creation.
However, it takes great humility to understand that you are not the highest being and that you
are not in control. Everything you have and everything you are is thanks to a higher power known
as God. Sadly, many people are not willing to accept due to man’s (yes that includes you) own
ignorance and selfishness.
Ever wonder why you feel guilty for doing wrong? It is because God void of evil and that there is
so much more to this world than you can fathom. If you even begin to think that the concept of right
and wrong came from anything other than God and man’s selfishness, I am deeply sorry for you.
Chew on this one for a while, “taste and see that it is good”, swallow it, then pray to
God and ask for His forgiveness. God lays before us the CHOICE of Life (God) and Death (sin/man’s
selfish ways), choose Life my friend.
“Are you saying that, with God, I have all the answers?”
“No, I am simply saying that with Him, you only need one…”
April 23rd, 2007 at 10:59 pm
Come on. You don’t have to be on one side or the other to be a jackass. Good and bad exist on both sides of any issue. God does seem to be something which can not be proved or disproved with scientific method. One possible explanation might be that God avoids being subjected to scientific analysis. Food for thought…
April 23rd, 2007 at 11:00 pm
fearphage comment #125:
In my opinion, there is only one way to really understand anything, and that’s to study it. That’s what science does, it takes the most accurate, most up-to-date knowledge mankind has available, and forms a conclusion based upon it. Medicine is a science, constantly updated, constantly at the very limit of accuracy. The theory that a God exists dates back to a time without science… without empirical evidence to support conclusions… Why do terminal illness’s rarely… very rarely… just disappear? I dont know, and neither do you. I can say with the utmost confidence that if such anamolies do exist, there is a rational explanation behind them… and in time, with the proper application of the scientific method, we will understand what appears to be magic. Lightning was once considered proof of the existence of a more powerful entity. Epilepsy was considered to be demonic possession only a few hundred years ago… and actually some still believe in demons and angels and other mystical creatures today. As time progresses, the mysteries of the universe will be revealed to us….through study… by constantly poking everything until it makes sense. Until then, lets not make conclusions based on superstition or ancient philosophy.
April 23rd, 2007 at 11:01 pm
For those who don’t seem to understand why God is unable to prevent things or stop them, you should take a few hours and read C.S. Lewis’s “Mere Christianity”…he explains the basis of the Christian faith as well as reasoning behind why God has done, or not done, things throughout time (which in and of itself is something created by humans)
April 23rd, 2007 at 11:07 pm
Good point, Shiffy. If God made a universe, He could not do anything he wanted. Once you define a property, you have to deal with it, or cast it out and start over. You can’t be omnipotent. If we want a car, we can’t have both fuel economy *and* high performance. Once God decided the charge on the electron, he could not arbitrarily define a carbon atom.
April 23rd, 2007 at 11:11 pm
“I can say with the utmost confidence that if such anamolies do exist, there is a rational explanation behind them…”
The utmost confidence would be … Faith. Basically you put your Faith in Science.
“That’s what science does, it takes the most accurate, most up-to-date knowledge mankind has available, and forms a conclusion based upon it.”
Now there is a catch 22 the most up to date knowledge mankind has available at the time is usually flawed in some respect. Poor planet Pluto.
God however always was and always is. That has not changed.
April 23rd, 2007 at 11:13 pm
“Suppose we have only dreamed, or made up, all those things– trees and grass and sun and moon and stars and Aslan himself. Suppose we have. Then all I can say is that, in that case, the made-up things seem a good deal more important than the real ones. Suppose this black pit of a kingdom of yours IS the only world. Well, it strikes me as a pretty poor one. And that’s a funny thing, when you come to think of it. We’re just babies making up a game, if you’re right. But four babies playing a game can make a play-world which licks your real world hollow. That’s why I’m going to stand by the play world. I’m on Aslan’s side even if there isn’t any Aslan to lead it. I’m going to live like a Narnian as I can even if there isn’t any Narnia.” Puddleglum
C.S.Lewis
April 23rd, 2007 at 11:14 pm
I wonder if other religious groups feel threatened by current technology. Well…we’ve seen the amish, mebbe Mormon’s are afraid of http://www.ask.com. What it looks like to me, is that they seem to take a hostile stance against any new invention of of society. I actually visited a church that proclaimed mini skirts were a sin a few years back…
April 23rd, 2007 at 11:14 pm
That is indeed funny! There is perhaps a temptation to think we as people and individuals are very clever… Kudos to the Rev.! :-)
April 23rd, 2007 at 11:18 pm
Precisely, Larry. For example, God was not able to “save” man from His sins as He stood. For God to be able to “help” mankind, we must accept Him into our lives, which then leads to God placing a bit of Himself into us. But here’s the problem when it came to having to save man. In order to help us, He needed to do something that only we can do and God cannot. He needed to, according to Lewis, surrender, suffer, submit, and die. God is not able to do any of these things; He “was, and is, and is to come”. It is not in His capability to do these things. The only way for this to be part of His nature. The only way for this to become part of His nature was for Him to become truly human. Thus Jesus came. The “one, and only son” of God.
April 23rd, 2007 at 11:21 pm
God is fake.
If God made everything, who made God?
If God can just exist beyond time, why can’t the universe do the same? No God is needed to explain anything, except for small minds.
Why does the Christian God, in the Bible, advocate slavery and genocide? Why does he require that anyone gathering wood on a Sunday be stoned to death?
Because the Bible is a ridiculous book hammered together by a bunch of brutal dumbass closed-minded jerks trying to promote their newly invented fake religion, that’s why.
April 23rd, 2007 at 11:23 pm
help me understand this one: Intelligent design *must* exist because the complex universe could not have happened without a creator, yet this logic is abandoned instantly as soon as God is brought in. If the universe can’t exist without cause, how can God exist without cause? If you accept that God just exists without a cause or intelligent design, then the universe could exist without cause! You can’t have it both ways.
April 23rd, 2007 at 11:24 pm
To James Russell Lowell
how about where any other religion besides Christianity exists? Keep in mind that Christianity is not the only religion in the world nor do a majority of people in the world profess themselves at as Christian. How about the native americans before we took away their land, dignity, and lives? they had a social structure, they honored their women, they raised their children, all under a different God. How about the Aztecs, Mayan’s, or any other group that has been oppressed simply for what they believe in? There are millions of square miles, your just to naive in your thinking to believe that maybe it is human compassion that allows people of a different creed to actually co-exist and their willingness to do so. your the ones throwing it down others throats that God is the end all be all, when the debate still rages on. you prefer not to debate though, rather you want to throw it down our throats and make us conform to your beliefs.
I will not emigrate their and profess my beliefs for the simple fact that i can and will express my beliefs here. The gospel has been used for so many things that it shouldn’t be used for and has been used as an excuse for centuries to “Christians” to take away the life and dignity of so called savages and people of different beliefs. Where is the God in that?
For every good act in the world, i can find 3 wrong ones, you claim all good is by god and all evil is by humans, i dont believe in that.
Just to clarify i am agnostic. i believe in God, but i dont associate myself with any particular church, because i believe most, like this one, use a system of reward-condemnation as a means to salvation or eternal peace, when it should be otherwise. i’m not looking for salvation, i’m looking to be a good person and if that brings rewards in the end then so be it, but to be a good person solely for the reward, well you dont learn anything from that in life.
April 23rd, 2007 at 11:24 pm
The bible is what it is, a story. Be it a good one, it’s still just a story.
Something we as humans have done since we had the ability to wonder. Whenever we do not understand something, we have a habit of making up the reasoning behind it just to make us a little more comfy with the unknown world around us.
Like someone said before, the whole idea is a security blanket. humans are afraid of what they do not comprehend. And this fact has a direct responsibility to the majority of the wars we have fought, struggles we have endured and problems we face for the future.
Religion, it seems, is the true sin here.
April 23rd, 2007 at 11:27 pm
not true. yesterday I searched Google for my name and all it showed were a bunch of porn sites!
April 23rd, 2007 at 11:28 pm
One thing is certain. Not one among us *knows* the truth. Anyone claiming to know what image of God or which religion is the “true” one is a fool or an idiot.
April 23rd, 2007 at 11:29 pm
Very nice find! I love it! I put the pix on inselpix, here’s the link if you want to forward it on to friends in emails and or host it on your site, myspace or whatever…
http://img.inselpix.com/193318281090.jpg
April 23rd, 2007 at 11:31 pm
Josh comment #135.
You might want to find a better source than the Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry. I have a feeling any information on that site may be biased against evolutionary theory in general, but that’s just a hunch.
It does not take more effort to believe in evolution that in creation… actually, i think it’s the other way around. Evolution is such a logical theory backed by a world full of evidence. If you use radioactive decay to date the age of fossil records of any species, you will see a distinct change over time in charectoristics that improve chances of survival. In every set of fossils of every set of species that exists today… there is a gradual progression of charectoristics that would increase the likelyhood of survival. Using multiple methods of dating… the same progression is apparent. There is more evidence, but needless to say… the evidence supporting evolutionary theory is honestly too great to deny, except for the ignorant.
There are very good reasons why we feel guilty, but there’s nothing supernatural about it. We are socialized from infancy to learn the difference between good and bad. The infant who questions why crossing the street is bad gets run over. An infant does not know the difference between the dangers of crossing the road and the dangers of not sacrificing the goat to the moon god. They are all examples of proper survival behavior displayed by our parents. We have a tendency to carry on this same behavior into our adult lives, as all animals do… the behavior gets passed down to children, who becomes adults… and the cycle continues.
Perhaps you should visit an earlier link I posted about the origins of the God theory. Once one understands where the god theory came from, its very easy to see why the theory no longer applies in the scientifically revolutionized world that we live in.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fyerwOIwfRc
It’s helpful to realize that we are a product of our environment, to an extent. I wonder, if you were raised in a muslim home, or a pagan home, or predominantly buddhist country… would you still uphold the views on morality that you hold today?
There is an infinite number of hypothesis regarding morality, life after death, eternal damnation, paradise, reincarnation, deification, etc. Each hypothesis is equally valid, because they are speculations made without any evidence supporting them. A rational man realizes that he cannot possibly fulfill the requirements of every religious hypothesis in his lifetime, there are simply too many. Therefore, realizing that every religious hypothesis is equally possible and valid, and that the pursuit of one hypothesis leaves an infinite number of other hypothesis left unfulfilled, and that it is not possible to fulfill the requirements of every religious hypothesis at the same time, the rational man realizes he is constantly at risk of eternal damnation from an infinite number of after-life hypothesis that he cannot fulfill. The rational man accepts this, perhaps with regret, and decides to pursue a life before death, instead of a life after death.
April 23rd, 2007 at 11:37 pm
Wait, I almost forgot. My pal and I have discussed this much, and I would like to share it with you all.
I used to work with a guy who was very religious. One day, in the middle of a conversation, he said something about being “saved.”
This got me thinking about god and all that stuff. I had a little light bulb go off in my head, so I figured I go ask this guy a question.
I asked him about what this “saved” thing meant. He basicly said that everyone is imprinted with the sin of man, bla bla bla. And you must go get saved to be able to go to heaven when you die, or when the rapture comes.
So I asked him, “So, its like, if you don’t go our way, you will be damned to hell?”
He replies, yeah.
I rephrase. “So basicly, if i dont follow, im dead?”
He replies, “Basicly, yeah”
Now people, if you’re not sure where this is going, you need to think about it a bit more.
What does this sound like? What group in history does this sound EXACTLY like?
Nazis.
If you werent one of them, you were killed. or enslaved, which is usually worse.
See you religious freaks, you’re all Nazis, weather you like it or not.
If you don’t believe me, go back to grade school and learn about the Holocaust
April 23rd, 2007 at 11:37 pm
Religious people, please read: As an atheist, I believe that there is something greater that our mind cannot (yet?) grasp. Sort-of like how a bacteria can live inside the world of YOU; doing its daily grind; totally unaware of anything outside of its range of exploration. Now, obviously that bacteria isn’t as intelligent as we are, and can’t begin to comprehend the grand scale of Earth, right? Now extrapolate that out to a dog and apply the same. Now extrapolate that out and out and out. Everything is relative.
It’s sad, but original supernatural religious beliefs still exist, regardless of science. It used to be religion’s claim that only it could explain the unknowns, and that it was God’s doing. We see now with observation and good science that most or all of religion’s explanations were wrong. Nowadays, the only real leg religion has to stand on is being able to say “Science can’t explain the origin of life and everything,” and, of course, attributes it to God.
I call bullshit.
When will humanity awake and enter the next level of intelligence?
April 23rd, 2007 at 11:37 pm
Religious people, please read: As an atheist, I believe that there is something greater that our mind cannot (yet?) grasp. Sort-of like how a bacteria can live inside the world of YOU; doing its daily grind; totally unaware of anything outside of its range of exploration. Now, obviously that bacteria isn’t as intelligent as we are, and can’t begin to comprehend the grand scale of Earth, right? Now extrapolate that out to a dog and apply the same. Now extrapolate that out and out and out. Everything is relative.
It’s sad, but original supernatural religious beliefs still exist, regardless of science. It used to be religion’s claim that only it could explain the unknowns, and that it was God’s doing. We see now with observation and good science that most or all of religion’s explanations were wrong. Nowadays, the only real leg religion has to stand on is being able to say “Science can’t explain the origin of life and everything,” and, of course, attributes it to God.
I call bullshit.
When will humanity awaken and enter the next level of intelligence?
April 23rd, 2007 at 11:39 pm
@ Darwin:
Here’s the big question for you. You mentioned that we are trained from infancy as to what is “good” and what is “bad”. How do we as a species understand what is good and bad without there being some predetermined sense of this that can only be explained by a supernatural presence? How do we know what is “good” and what is “bad”? Yes, you can equate it to small things like a child crossing/not crossing a street. However, how do you equate it to things such as the Holocaust, and more recently, the shooting at Virginia Tech? How do you know that the occurrence is “bad”? We seem to have this sense of “morality” that most try to explain by saying that we have been trained for thousands of years as to what is “good” and what is “bad”, but why is it that after all of this time, we, as a mass of people, have not come up with a different belief of what is “good” and “bad”?
April 23rd, 2007 at 11:41 pm
JohnTheBall:
It is all too true that various sects in Christianity have at times been party to actions of which all Christians should be ashamed. I must say that not all missionary efforts among western christians have resulted in forcing our western culture on indiginous people. There is much in cross-cultural missions that is wrong! If you like a good contrasting story may I suggest a great book by Bruce Olsen? His book is called Bruchko. http://www.amazon.com/Bruchko-Astonishing-Nineteen-Year-Olds-International-Adventures/dp/1576583481
April 23rd, 2007 at 11:43 pm
Charlie E.,
>When will humanity awake and enter the next level of intelligence?
When hell freezes over. ;) Emotion and cognitive dissonance rule. Logic is a pretty flower, which smells bad!
As Papa Budge used to say:
Ring the bells that can still ring
forget your perfect offering
there’s a crack in everything
That’s how the light gets in
April 23rd, 2007 at 11:45 pm
Wow, the believer/{atheist|agnostics} ratio is so low for this site’s readers.
#83 DFens: I also have this religion-is-a-virus theory. It’s a mind virus just like we have computer virus, which is also an ‘algorithm’, but not something physical.
I think the virus also spreads easily in church and fellowship. Most people are actually vulnerable to ‘religion’. Only a very small % of people are immune to it by nature. Education also helps decreasing one’s probability of getting infected.
April 23rd, 2007 at 11:49 pm
This is how being an informed atheist makes me feel. I find nothing that evokes this type of feeling in any bible:
As you release the fictitious beliefs that stand in your way, you will recognize eternity’s thoughts as your own, and activate historically latent features of human design. You will see that creature and environment are inseparable, and that environment does not stop with an ecosystem but extends to include your star-system, and every galaxy resting in the universal sea. This blue and white sphere, floating so alive through space, is, after all, an intensely intimate place. Its rhythms pulse within our bodies, our gardens, our seasons. As our minds and hearts also attune, our vision clears; we see the world anew. Plants arrange molecules in patterns inspired by the light of our nearest star. Oceans rise to greet the moon. A biosphere plays with endless variations, mingling earth and sun, time and eternity, balancing matter and spirit in uncountable lives. Evolution moves toward balance in consciousness as well as in form.
-Ken Carey, Vision
April 23rd, 2007 at 11:54 pm
Arael,
The difficulty comes when you have deeply moving personal experiences utterly separate from organized religion that indicate something “out there”. Only fools care to try to define it. It is beyond our understanding. You have a good point regarding infectious memes, but just the same, I feel something exists. Those who are “immune” might be missing something, as they rally round their avoidance of the possibility they might be missing the impact of a collective conciousness, or something they do not understand.
April 23rd, 2007 at 11:54 pm
do not mingle atheist and agnostics together, just because we dont believe in your particular faith, does not mean we do not have any faith at all. When you group two seperate groups in that kind of catorgory it shows your ignorance.
April 23rd, 2007 at 11:57 pm
Damn those group groupers! ;)
April 24th, 2007 at 12:02 am
Religion is just like those annoying infomercials everyone has seem before. They all promise some very marvelous product or service but as well all know the actual results may vary.
April 24th, 2007 at 12:07 am
Question for the Christians?
How can there be predestination and freewill?
April 24th, 2007 at 12:14 am
hcl4 lmao!
Lester, I don’t think that both predestination and free will can exist in the same universe, unless some incredible set up can provide contradictory catagorization or rules to decide when each will dominate.
April 24th, 2007 at 12:21 am
As for me I CHOOSE to believe in God. I am not ashamed of the fact that although I have never SEEN him I have FAITH in him. I don’t look for GOD in the physical world because I find him in my heart. Those of you who consider those of us who believe that Jesus is their personal savior more than likely do not stack up EDUCATION wise to the likes of Dr. Francis Collins, Phd MD, and director of the NATIONAL HUMAN GENOME INSTITUTE. Also the author of “The Language of God: A Scientist Presents Evidence for Belief”.
———–
ROCKVILLE, Maryland (CNN) — I am a scientist and a believer, and I find no conflict between those world views.
As the director of the Human Genome Project, I have led a consortium of scientists to read out the 3.1 billion letters of the human genome, our own DNA instruction book. As a believer, I see DNA, the information molecule of all living things, as God’s language, and the elegance and complexity of our own bodies and the rest of nature as a reflection of God’s plan.
I did not always embrace these perspectives. As a graduate student in physical chemistry in the 1970s, I was an atheist, finding no reason to postulate the existence of any truths outside of mathematics, physics and chemistry. But then I went to medical school, and encountered life and death issues at the bedsides of my patients. Challenged by one of those patients, who asked “What do you believe, doctor?”, I began searching for answers.
I had to admit that the science I loved so much was powerless to answer questions such as “What is the meaning of life?” “Why am I here?” “Why does mathematics work, anyway?” “If the universe had a beginning, who created it?” “Why are the physical constants in the universe so finely tuned to allow the possibility of complex life forms?” “Why do humans have a moral sense?” “What happens after we die?”
I had always assumed that faith was based on purely emotional and irrational arguments, and was astounded to discover, initially in the writings of the Oxford scholar C.S. Lewis and subsequently from many other sources, that one could build a very strong case for the plausibility of the existence of God on purely rational grounds. My earlier atheist’s assertion that “I know there is no God” emerged as the least defensible. As the British writer G.K. Chesterton famously remarked, “Atheism is the most daring of all dogmas, for it is the assertion of a universal negative.”
But reason alone cannot prove the existence of God. Faith is reason plus revelation, and the revelation part requires one to think with the spirit as well as with the mind. You have to hear the music, not just read the notes on the page. Ultimately, a leap of faith is required.
For me, that leap came in my 27th year, after a search to learn more about God’s character led me to the person of Jesus Christ. Here was a person with remarkably strong historical evidence of his life, who made astounding statements about loving your neighbor, and whose claims about being God’s son seemed to demand a decision about whether he was deluded or the real thing. After resisting for nearly two years, I found it impossible to go on living in such a state of uncertainty, and I became a follower of Jesus.
So, some have asked, doesn’t your brain explode? Can you both pursue an understanding of how life works using the tools of genetics and molecular biology, and worship a creator God? Aren’t evolution and faith in God incompatible? Can a scientist believe in miracles like the resurrection?
Actually, I find no conflict here, and neither apparently do the 40 percent of working scientists who claim to be believers. Yes, evolution by descent from a common ancestor is clearly true. If there was any lingering doubt about the evidence from the fossil record, the study of DNA provides the strongest possible proof of our relatedness to all other living things.
But why couldn’t this be God’s plan for creation? True, this is incompatible with an ultra-literal interpretation of Genesis, but long before Darwin, there were many thoughtful interpreters like St. Augustine, who found it impossible to be exactly sure what the meaning of that amazing creation story was supposed to be. So attaching oneself to such literal interpretations in the face of compelling scientific evidence pointing to the ancient age of Earth and the relatedness of living things by evolution seems neither wise nor necessary for the believer.
I have found there is a wonderful harmony in the complementary truths of science and faith. The God of the Bible is also the God of the genome. God can be found in the cathedral or in the laboratory. By investigating God’s majestic and awesome creation, science can actually be a means of worship.
April 24th, 2007 at 12:24 am
My big question is why people seem to think that they know the way. It is no more prevalent on one side of the issue or the other. Atheists, religious, and all between are so damn certain they know what is right, logical or true. None of us do, and I most explicitly include myself!
April 24th, 2007 at 12:32 am
i still haven’t seen one christian give any reason why their god is real rather than zeus and hera and hades and the rest of them. in my opinion all you christians are athiests! i’m waiting for a good arguement against this one…
April 24th, 2007 at 12:41 am
Larry, you wonder why people seem to think that they know the way.
Atheists don’t claim to know the way. They just know, if they have studied evolution, as some of them have, that complex things evolve from simple beginnings.
Complex things do not just spring into existence. They evolve slowly.
God, if there were such a thing, would be a complex thing. It would have to be complex in order to have the knowledge to create such a complex universe.
Now go back to what I said above. Complex things don’t just exist without some process that creates them. God doesn’t just exist. If there was a God or a God-like supreme intelligence, it would have to be created the same way everything else is, by a gradual process of evolution.
This is the only way we currently know to go from zero knowledge (totally random soup of primordial matter) to intelligence — evolution. There is no other way to do it. This is not a matter of faith; you can think it through and it becomes a matter of common sense and understanding. It’s actually pretty basic, but a lot of otherwise smart and well informed people don’t get this, and therefore call themselves agnostics.
No, atheists do not know everything.
But some of us do know that there is no such thing as God, except as a delusion in the minds of some people.
April 24th, 2007 at 12:42 am
I must quote from Gary’s contribution:
But why couldn’t this be God’s plan for creation? True, this is incompatible with an ultra-literal interpretation of Genesis, but long before Darwin, there were many thoughtful interpreters like St. Augustine, who found it impossible to be exactly sure what the meaning of that amazing creation story was supposed to be.
Like you, I don’t see a big conflict with science and creation. Could it just be that if you examine God’s works in a secular fashon you come up with evolution, God’s way of building a universe? Would you perhaps humor me by imagining that if you communicated the truth of creation to a bunch of fisherman and farmers that you might have to use parables and analogy to describe that best couched in quantum mechanics?
I see no contradiction in evolution and creation at all. Not one.
A big thanks to all who have read my words. Keep on thinking free.
April 24th, 2007 at 12:53 am
this world would be a better place without religion to f*ck up friendships and races.
….god or not
April 24th, 2007 at 1:03 am
Jason,
I so enjoy your point of view!
>They just know, if they have studied evolution, as some of them have, that complex things evolve from simple beginnings.
I tend to agree with this, but I have to admit, it is a convenient hypothesis. It does look that way, but not having been here when it all started, we can not be certain of what might have gone before our limited observations of the universe.
>There is no other way to do it.
Ahh, that is debatable. It’s the only way I can think of that makes sense, but that does not make it the only way.
Now, consider that evolution continues to the point where you have a highly evolved race which understands physics to the point where they can outlive the big bang cycle. Or perhaps they get to the point they can create their own universe. perhaps they become God. maybe the cycle is eternal.
April 24th, 2007 at 1:04 am
You can find “God” in google, but not google in God.
April 24th, 2007 at 1:06 am
Darwin #152
Darwin, you have not answered anything, you have merely diverted attention to a different matter. You can’t deny what Darwin said, because, well, he did say this. Finding this on “religious” websites may be the only place considering every other chooses to remove it. Try it on Google and give me the one non-biased website that includes this excerpt from Darwin’s book. Not only will you please me but prove me even more (one and the same). Otherwise go get his book and read it as I have done (pg. 217 of Volume I) Don’t get me wrong, he was a very intelligent man, and had many truths in his book. The problem was he got ahead of himself and undeniably regrets it now that he is dead.
That whole radioactive decay thing is great but you must understand that they have to use circular reasoning to form the bases of their dating estimates. Plus, many scientists know but won’t admit that the most fossils can either be “millions of years old” or be a result of extreme pressure for a short period of time (The Flood maybe?…just a thought).
Onto the subject of right and wrong. Once again you don’t explain anything. Where did I even mention the word “survival”? Wow, do you really value yourself on the same level as an animal? No wonder mankind is slowly destroying themselves. What I am saying is that if evolution were true, there we be no right and wrong because nothing would be right or wrong. Hence, we would live in a chaotic world where anything would go without repercussions.
That youtube link is great but can you give something that is unbiased as well? Mankind will always try to deny a higher being, that is part of our selfish nature. I believe him as much as I believe Hitler when he claimed he was god (the antichrist if anything). To say that Creation no longer applies to modern theory is a rather ignorant thing to say. Sure it may longer be in the scientific realm but it is being recognized as the truth by more and more people than ever before in what I like to call the real world. The greatest revival known to man is happening right now and it is only getting bigger. Though many people still choose to reject Him, they will soon see the truth no matter what.
The sad thing is that I feel remorse for those who grow up in a non-Christian home. I too would probably not have the same morals I hold today simply because I am not given the chance to hear of something better. Unfortunately, any mention of Christianity, in muslim dominated countries for example, is quickly quieted because of the uprising that could occur. This country was founded on the Word of God and made us one of the greatest nations as a result. I am blessed to live here and am “blessed to be a blessing”.
Indeed, every hypothesis is valid, but that doesn’t mean they are true. The point is that I know why I am here: to fulfill God’s purpose and plan for my life share the love of God to others and His message). Wow, I know the meaning for of life! I am living for others, what are you living for…?
I shall conclude this heavy response with some humor:
The scientist approached God and said, “Listen, we’ve decided we no longer need you. Nowadays, we can extract stem cells, clone people, transplant hearts, and all kinds of things that were once considered miraculous.”
God patiently heard him out, and then said, “All right. To see whether or not you still need me, why don’t we have a little man-making contest!”
“Okay, great!” the scientist said.
“Now, we’re going to do this just like I did back in the old days with Adam,” God said.
“That’s fine,” replied the scientist and he bent down to scoop up a handful of dirt.
“Whoa!” God said, shaking his head in disapproval. “Not so fast, pal. You get your own dirt.”
Come back to me when you have broken the second law of thermodynamics - matter can neither be created nor destroyed.
April 24th, 2007 at 1:09 am
ily-tail Says:
this world would be a better place without religion to f*ck up friendships and races.
….god or not
Religious belief has pissed on more than one parade, but I’d wager it has dome as much good as harm. Lots of folks just can’t behave in humanitarian ways without a belief that there is more to life than what you get while you are here.
April 24th, 2007 at 1:20 am
These exchanges on message boards serve very little for advancing a belief in God or otherwise but what the hell … The God of the bible is superior to any frame of reference us humans have, the reason I accepted God was not because of a blind faith or apologetics but when I saw the REAL difference in peoples lives (gravity #24), I asked God myself and he responded by coming into my life. The personal relationship that many Christians profess is as real as anything we can touch or see, but is not demonstrable apart from our behaviour. If God were to tangibly prove his existence it would only serve to force people into a robotic following of him through fear … not what He wants.
April 24th, 2007 at 1:31 am
We’re all doomed to grow old and die horrible debilitating deaths, all because some jackass ate some fruit and pissed off a malicious and torturous god.
well.
Fuck god. He can suck my cock.
April 24th, 2007 at 1:46 am
Mr so-called “Who’s truth? Yours?”, would you mind spelling your own nickname, for Google’s sake?
It’s “whose”, not “who’s”.
“Whose shoes are those?”
“They are Jack’s.”
“Who’s Jack?”
“He is Bob’s friend.”
Googledamnit, I can’t cope with you ignorant people, who can’t even spell correctly, going around and even wanting to _teach_ stuff to people.
April 24th, 2007 at 1:46 am
Mr so-called “Who’s truth? Yours?”, would you mind spelling your own nickname correctly, for Google’s sake?
It’s “whose”, not “who’s”.
“Whose shoes are those?”
“They are Jack’s.”
“Who’s Jack?”
“He is Bob’s friend.”
Googledamnit, I can’t cope with you ignorant people, who can’t even spell correctly, going around and even wanting to _teach_ stuff to people.
April 24th, 2007 at 2:17 am
seems like a battle to me, let’s see Google vs God
omg!
April 24th, 2007 at 2:18 am
The concept of Gods and deities etc. were devised to explain phenomena that ancient people couldn’t explain more rationally, given their level of understanding of natural processes. These things were usually cataclysmic processes, such as volcanoes, earth quakes, violent storms etc.
We now have a much greater understanding of the processes involved in the eruption of a volcano for example, or the formation of a hurricane etc. and few people would deny these processes.
The trouble is that having reached this level of understanding, where we don’t necessarily need to explain volcanoes or storms as being acts of God, people have simply tried to find another way to justify the existence of God.
I’m also not at all swayed by the argument that because love exists then surely God must. It can easily be reasoned that what we term as love, is simply a physiological response to assist in bonding between couples, which facilitates the continued survival of our species.
Moral judgement is likewise simply a natural instinct that people (and most other animals) have to ensure productive and healthy social networks, also vital for our survival. There’s nothing mysterious or divine about this. If we hadn’t long ago developed a natural tendency to function effectively in social groups, our species would have become extinct.
I don’t think it’s necessary to prove that God doesn’t exist. A rational person does not believe in something simply because it can’t be disproved. In rational thought, belief is supported by evidence. If the evidence is disproved, then continued belief is no longer logical.
Belief in deities is also often tied in with a concept of an afterlife. This I suspect was driven by the natural horror and grief people experienced as a result of death of family members etc. People wanted to believe that this wasn’t the end. There must be something after. There must be more to it than this. To which I would simply ask, Why?. Why must there be something after death? Simply because it’s to unpleasant to contemplate non-existence? Just because something seems like a nice idea, doesn’t make it true.
Our tendency to be swayed by the God and After-Life concepts is probably an evolved trait. In many ways it’s social conditioning to ensure appropriate co-operative behaviour. In ancient times, the civilisations which were more effective in curbing the anti-social tendency of their people would have been the most successful, and therefore the most likely to spread and multiply, which is the natural tendency of all species.
In short…
1. Strong instincts for successful pair bonding, helps a species procreate successfully. This is assisted by marriage rituals in most cultures.
2. Anti-social behaviour erodes the stability of the social network, and in time weakens a civilisations ability to defend itself against rivals. This led to the concepts of divine retribution for wrong doing. There is no fundamental right or wrong, there is simply behaviour which is detrimental or conducive to evolutionary success.
…
Our societies at the moment exit in a kind of limbo, wanting to embrace rationality, but at the same time, not quite ready to let go of mysticism and superstition. It’s very disturbing that in many ways we’re going backwards, with the continued trend towards extremism of religious beliefs (fundamentalist Christians included).
The problem is that what was once an effective way to maintain harmony in small localised social networks, in a large global environment can become highly destructive, when established beliefs cannot co-exist effectively.
The whole world is now our village, and in time we will need to learn to combine, or conform our belief systems, or humanity will become increasingly violent and dysfunctional. The question just remains, which way will we go, rationality or religion…
April 24th, 2007 at 2:28 am
In support of “Who’s Truth? Yours?” sayings:
How to know God really exists, imagine that you are all alone and are drowning in a big sea. Is it not there at that moment that you have some kind of hope to be saved by someone?? you reach inside yourself (soul) and feel that there is someone who can save you from this disaster. This feeling and hope is what you really believe in and that is GOD my friend.
May god bless us all and direct us towards the truth.
April 24th, 2007 at 2:29 am
Cyber Dog could not be more right. Thus, i am awarding him five internets.
April 24th, 2007 at 2:36 am
If someone is mirraculously saved from a horrible death, then God is indeed a good and wonderful God. If someone isn’t saved from a horrible death (which incidentally is just as likely), then it’s because his ways are so high above our own that we cannot hope to understand them.
Is it not more plausible that things just happen, not for any particular reason, or for any devine purpose?
April 24th, 2007 at 2:49 am
Every thing that happens has a reason. good actions create pleasant happenings and bad actions create mortifying results. for every action there is a reaction. We need to watch for our actions to see a good reaction.
So god is looking for these actions and responds in nice and gratifying reaction.
April 24th, 2007 at 2:58 am
I agree. Nice picture BTW.
April 24th, 2007 at 3:29 am
No.
Everyone is gonna die and rot’ in the ground, if you don’t believe me pick a grave….
There is no proof for God, just give it up. There is no proof against super beings that deal with up lemmings. I would rather sick to things with really world relevance and use. I would want to get what I want done now than when I go up there. No Regrets.
Sorry but when good people have really bad things happen to them and then people say, its “gods plan”. Um… no, you are getting shitted upon. Its not gods fault right, it just has to be done. But he could stop it right? He is all good and all powerful right? I mean, if god is all powerful and all knowing having thousands of Africans dieing of bad water doesn’t sit right with me. And dont talk about its a test, that is BS. Why make all those people suffer? A Jerk perhaps?
Sure god or whatever is probably a good thing but common, stop messing with people who dont care what you think.
Way, way, way too many people waste away too much of their lives going to someone where to give money and say they are a good person when they could just do something about it. If you want to be a “good” person just be a good person.
And yes, I would want to know the real answers not the ones I want to hear. I want to know as much as i can. Maybe the real answers people are going to hear are that there is an answer and they are going to die and probably no one is going to remember anything thing about that person in 200 years. But maybe just maybe someone will read my comments. :)
Google > God
Sure its ok to believe whatever you want to believe in but personally, if you do your stupid.
HAAHAHAHHA just kidding you are.
Nice picture.
I liked “the most powerful position is on your knees” on a sign like that one
April 24th, 2007 at 3:44 am
God does not exist, Google exists.
Religion is the opiate of the masses.
You’ve gotta be stoned to honestly tell me you believe an old man with a big white beard who lives in the clouds.
April 24th, 2007 at 3:57 am
I am curious - as to which is the greater evil …
Being a atheist …
Or a polytheist pagan ..
“Tell me why you do not believe in multiple gods
And i will tell you why i dont believ in one “
April 24th, 2007 at 4:01 am
I am curious - as to which is the greater evil …
Being a atheist …
Or a polytheist pagan ..
“Tell me why you do not believe in multiple gods
And i will tell you why i dont believ in one “
April 24th, 2007 at 4:03 am
i just need to know why they compared …
not everything great or famous is evil …
right ?
April 24th, 2007 at 4:04 am
Damn. Cant delete comments.
Oh well ..
Polytheism
Poly-comment-ism
All in 6 days work .
April 24th, 2007 at 4:05 am
like c’mon, Google has been made of a HUMAN Being, NOT by GOD.
April 24th, 2007 at 4:05 am
But at least Google answers *some* questions. God just keeps silence.
April 24th, 2007 at 4:11 am
why not multiple gods?
the same reason -> why not multiple kings??
April 24th, 2007 at 4:18 am
This is why America is so messed up. The mentality to dare to compare a search engine, with something so sacred. Its so sick.
On the other hand all of you have said,: “Oh My GOD”, and ” GOD please HELP me” @ some point.
God Bless
April 24th, 2007 at 4:23 am
God == king
hmmmmmmm
nyways
So you would subscribe to having a single king ?
April 24th, 2007 at 4:31 am
No, America is so messed up because almost half of the population believe that if science contradicts the bible, then science is wrong.
April 24th, 2007 at 4:32 am
> On the other hand all of you have said,: “Oh My GOD”, and ” GOD please HELP me” @ some point.
And if we call out, “Santa Clause HELP me”, the end result will be much the same.
April 24th, 2007 at 4:33 am
This is clever work by the church and good for them.
Why is it that everyone gets idiotic when they see something about God. I don’t go to church and I don’t care what everyone thinks about church and God and atheism.
Are we ever going to get to a point where we can see something clever/funny etc and just have a laugh?
April 24th, 2007 at 4:39 am
God’s never found me big titty porn, though.
April 24th, 2007 at 5:00 am
@ #120:
Dude, there are patches on Earth like that everywhere, and many of them outside of ‘enlightened’ Christian countries. Consider how the quality of living in Japan, China and slowly India is getting better than that quality of living one finds in ghettos or even in the best suburbs. This whole idea that civilization and ‘respect for womanhood’ emerging from where Christianity has gone is overly ridiculous and retarded. You’re obviously not very aware of the world, and I’d suggest you try and find out about it before making such retarded grandiose statements.
April 24th, 2007 at 5:14 am
oh, and god can?
April 24th, 2007 at 6:27 am
Man can understand god as much as a mouse can understand flamenco dancer. If he does exist, he is entirely out of our realm. Unlike google that probably did more good for mankind during its short existence, than god througout entire history.
Rat-race for mice, god for enternity and google for men!!!
I don`t know if God realy is dead, but he is becoming increasingly pathetic.
April 24th, 2007 at 6:34 am
I’d give God about another 50 years.
April 24th, 2007 at 6:55 am
Google suggest is god.
http://www.google.com/webhp?complete=1&hl=en
April 24th, 2007 at 7:30 am
There are so many comments here from non-God supporters. So I ask, how ever did George W. Bush get elected with his faith-based politics and Bible-belt supporters? Clearly, our fellow-citizens feel that god is so strong that we need a president who builds his support from the God-fearing. He’d make better decisions and be more in touch with how Americans feel if he Googled.
April 24th, 2007 at 7:33 am
Just because that moronic popinjay got elected does not mean that God exists, or is better than Google.
April 24th, 2007 at 7:41 am
I tried asking God. Every time i try to access him i get a 404. Can anyone help?
April 24th, 2007 at 7:57 am
If you insist that god exists, you must also allow that other gods exist. To say there’s only one god is lunacy. The Egyptians had many gods, and they believed as fervently as any Christian that they were right. We take it for granted that those gods did not exist only because no one still believes in them. By that logic, your god would also cease to exist if people stopped believing.
Christians believe in many gods, but for some reason they deny it. Satan is a god. An evil god, but a god just the same. Ask any Christian if he exists. Angels are lesser gods. Their significance is on par with the many godlets of Greek religions. Christians believe in an infinite number of gods (as well as believing they themselves will become minor gods after their death), so to deny the possibility of the existence of Pagan or other gods is foolish.
A Google god makes as much sense as anything else.
April 24th, 2007 at 7:58 am
For all of you atheist. Many of you have made comments here such as where is God, why doesn’t he answer us, etc. I wouldn’t answer you either if the only time you spoke to me was when you wanted something. Have you ever looked for God?
April 24th, 2007 at 8:00 am
Respect one another, help one another, love one another, is there anything wrong with that ? What makes you happy ? In some mysterious way, doing what Jesus told us to can make anyone happy. Whether he is real or not, it works. You Doubt it ? try it, and if you haven’t shut the fuck up.
April 24th, 2007 at 8:03 am
I don’t have issues with respecting people, or loving them. I just have issues in believing in something that there is no reason to believe in. Whether he is real or not, it works. Absolutely true. That isn’t reason, however, to believe that he is real, but to believe that it works.
April 24th, 2007 at 8:44 am
hey zbard (post 199) how many kings do you know that died for their people?
April 24th, 2007 at 8:52 am
hey zbard (post 199) how many kings do you know that have sacrificed themselves to save their people?
hey jeff, (post 211) i really think you are confused on what christianity is. first of all, on of the basic tenents of christianity is monotheism. monotheism means one God of the universe, and only one. second, satan is not a god, he is the prince of darkness and of this world. THIS WORLD and only THIS WORLD, whereas God is the king of the universe, of our destiny, and of all eternity. and i have absolutely no idea where u came up with angels being “lesser gods”??? and people becoming lesser gods?? seriously and honestly, the human race (in the flesh) is so wicked that for God to even let us live is merciful! but no, he killed his only son for us and give us his son’s reward that is only fit for him!! we are so undeserving of life and mercy, and he gives us eternal life? this is the greatness of a just God
April 24th, 2007 at 8:53 am
Arawn,
Has anyone twisted your arm telling you that you MUST believe? It is obvious that you do have issues with respecting those who CHOOSE FREELY to believe?
“This whole idea that civilization and ‘respect for womanhood’ emerging from where Christianity has gone is overly ridiculous and retarded. ”
You think such words as this from you do not reflect some sort of personal issue against those of us who choose to believe the way we do? Maybe you don’t have the wherewithal to address or reply to a person’s statement in a respectful way. Discussing issues such as this can go so much farther if we were able keep PERSONAL jabs out of the conversation.. It sounds as if you really want to poke someone in the eye for being a Christian.
It is understandable why you want PROOF that God exist. However there are those of us who SEE proof on a daily basis. The person who is healed from some untreatable disease and doctors can only describe it as a miracle. Sure many people like you will attribute it to something happened that we just didn’t understand medically or scientifically, however there are those of us who still consider it a miracle.
I am proud to be called that dreaded word “CHRISTIAN”… I wear it like a badge of honor. I choose to believe not because of some scientific proof of his existance but because of my personal faith. Something I am very comfortable with and only wish that people like you who would label us as “RETARDS” because we choose to believe this way would do what MOST liberals claim to do and accept us for what we are.
April 24th, 2007 at 8:59 am
nobody, (213)
ok so if christ wasnt the messiah, why would we think greatly of him? if he wasnt the messiah, then he was a liar, heretic, and pyschopath, and everything he said has no signifigance. he cant not be the messiah and still be a good teacher because he taught that he was the SON OF GOD!
April 24th, 2007 at 9:13 am
@Gary
Chrtistianity is one of those faiths that has tried their best in the past to physically and emotionally force people to join their cause, and there is absolute and believable proof that attributes to that idea. A faith that tells you that you can either live and become a christian or die is not one that I would be willing to join, ever. I understand that it does not go on around today, but that past has tainted the name in my view and I personally would not become a christian because of it. However, I would never hate someone for being christian because not all people are the same.
Most people see things as one way, but when it comes to the idea that all christians are closed-minded and such, both sides are guilty with such claims.
People often think “Oh that person is Christian, they must be mean and strict”. I have a friend that is christian, and he is a very nice person that cares for a lot of people and spends a lot of his time just trying to make himself a better person. Yet you look at that lady on Trading Spouses, you all will probably know who I am talking about. She didn’t care that they were human beings, she only cared whether they were the same religion or not, and isn’t the most humane person in the world. Such views should not be tolerated in today’s society, and on her person website which she claims she will reply to everyone, if someone writes something she doesn’t like, even in the form of a question, she will just delete it from her site and pretend it never existed. People like that are the ones giving christians a bad name, therefore both sides are equally guilty about these kinds of claims.
Now back to the topic at hand… Google VS God.
You can pray to god to get help, all he can give you is hope.
You can search to google to get help, and you’ll find instruction to fix your sink, but nothing useful to what you’re looking for.
You can pray to god to save a loved one.
You can search to google to learn that you must swim 2000+ miles across the ocean.
With google you at least get a response that will even correct your spelling. ;x
April 24th, 2007 at 9:32 am
“men never commit evil so fully and joyfully as when they do it for religious convictions.”
think bout that one..
April 24th, 2007 at 9:33 am
Hey Josh (post 216), You don’t recognize these other gods because your religion defines “god” as a single uber-god. Your belief system does not recognize other gods as gods… even the ones you believe in. Look at the gods that other religions believe(d) in. They came in many forms. They were not so different from the multitude of deities that the Christian faith accepts. Angels, saints, demons, Satan, Father, Son, Holy Spirit… the list goes on and on. You’ve been taught to call only one of them (or three of them, for those of us who know how to count) “God”. They’re all gods.
If you think you will live for eternity in a non-physical state, then you believe you will be a god. Not “THE” god, but definitely “A” god.
April 24th, 2007 at 9:43 am
Josh #218
I was being sarcastic cause that seem the only way to get people to listen.
I know He is as real as hes sitting next to me telling my to type these words. Its not like we can choose if he exists or not, all we can choose is to believe or not.
April 24th, 2007 at 9:43 am
That’s classic! “Atheists only look to god when they want something!”
Yeah, that’s it. God is just like Santa Claus. Atheists don’t expect anything from either of them.
They’re both fiction. We just gave up both. You’re still hanging on to your god because you expect the ultimate gift… eternal life after death. That’s just silly.
Atheists don’t believe in gods not because they haven’t answered their prayers…
We don’t pray. Athiest just hold a disbelief in gods… period.
We don’t hate god. It would be like hating Superman or the tooth fairy.
We’ve given up exactly the number of mythological gods as you monotheists.
Except we’ve just gone one god more.
April 24th, 2007 at 9:49 am
“You’re basically killing each other to see who’s got the better imaginary friend” lol
http://www.chrisbeach.co.uk/viewQuotes.php
April 24th, 2007 at 9:50 am
Hey Grammar Cop!
“_teach_stuff to people?” Mmmkay, that makes grammatical sense. Besides, who said anything about teaching? Was merely sharing my opinion as this is an open discussion forum. And just to annoy you, I’m going to leave my name as it is!
April 24th, 2007 at 10:15 am
PLEASE READ
I have a simple question:
Why is it that Religion (God) and Contemporary Science (Google) can’t function together? I really don’t understand this inherent conflict people seem to find between both entities.
I myself am a Muslim, yet I believe in the theory of Evolution; it is wholly reasonable and based upon rationalization. Most religious texts are wrought with all sorts of SYMBOLISM. Example: ‘On the seventh day God rested.’ Now, as an omnipotent being, God would have NO NEED to rest, would he? Another example: ‘Eve was created from the rib of Adam.’ Once again, simply poetic description, one of the reasons I find the Bible, the Qu’uran, and the Torah so interesting is the glorious way in which they’re written.
Now, a lot of people feel that most religious people think that the answer to questions like ‘Why do humans remain pulled to the Earth?’ is ‘BCUZ GAWD DID IT!!. Untrue, as a Muslim I rely on reason and most of all FACT. The prophet Muhammad said that ‘reason is the most valuable gift that human beings have.’
Religion can instill a sense of morality and acceptance in a human being, something possible without Religion of course, but I believe in a God that has created this universe and everything within it. At the same time, religion can be perverted an twisted in ways we see with the KKK and Al-Queda. Human beings are infallible, and we’ll wage war on each other until the very end. :/
Thanks for the read.
April 24th, 2007 at 10:23 am
Gary,
No, I do not have personal issues with Christians. I have issues with someone saying that they believe that all civilization and ‘respect for womanhood’ comes from Christianity. I was calling the author of post # 120 a retard, NOT Christians. I do not want to poke someone in the eye for being Christian. I want to poke people in the eye for making statements in which they believe what they have and what is theirs is the only good thing in this world.
I have no issues with those who freely believe and practice whatever religion they wish to follow. If, however, during the course of an argument, they choose to make statements that potray Christian ‘civilization’ to be greater than anything else in the world, (please read post # 120 to understand what I’m talking about) I have serious issues with that.
April 24th, 2007 at 10:42 am
the existence of god is true. the factuality of the bible is not.
end of discussion. get back to work.
April 24th, 2007 at 10:50 am
mdm-adph…
WERD
April 24th, 2007 at 11:04 am
WORD.
bout time someone said it
April 24th, 2007 at 11:49 am
#57, you can explain those thing trough the power of human mind over matter.
why would you give god credit for things people can do for themselves?!? :) In my view only to impose some fukken tax on it:
“come and pay me, I’ll push your healing button!”
well screw this, learn to push your own buttons psychodelic idiots!
because most of the effects of instant healing and stuff are happening in deep trances or altered states, all property of HUMAN BRAIN. whether it’s tapping into some energy apparently existing beyond our normal senses or it’s just able to send “out of scale” signals to your own body, it’s all pretty damn physical and energetic without any phreaking gods or spirits.
WAKE YOU ASSES UP, YOU ARE ALL THE MIRACLE YOU WILL EVER NEED!! Just learn to know yourself and believe into yourself instead spending your life mumbling towards some mystic illusions dragged along from ancient superstitious history.
The god put into peoples minds today is only HUGE GAPING BACKDOOR to your morals and sub-concious: ANYBODY could claim something that god said and you would be like: “hail jesus!” the same fukken way germans were all “hail hitler” and there you go, another bunch of people dead! does it make you breathe easier, that “well, at least they were not christians, so they were lost anyway?!”
Because it’s same stupid as some other religion thinking of christians. They are probably all perfectly good peaople driven mad and being mindraped by early “religious education”.
How could you get people kill other people for no apparent reason without religion? I’m not talking about psychotic killers or criminals, they do it with or without religion. I mean your brother and mother and father!
Religious excuses are used to commit mass murder and genocide TODAY.
PLEASE STOP IT!
use Google, educate yourself and learn to know yourself!
April 24th, 2007 at 12:11 pm
#120 AWFUL!!!
..wheere “the Gospel of Jesus Christ has not gone first to prepare the way.”
the way your gospel went and “prepared the lands” was to convert peaceful people to christianity and burn or drive away anybody who would not obey, then destroy or redefine their ancient traditions and claim them as part of christianity to wipe out any reference anything that was before and well.. guess that’s a pretty fukken proper preparation. Only before people were ALREADY living there, well and wonderful lives. then came christians and basically went bonkers with “our god’s way or no way”.
Just because they had nice bullshit manual ( also sometimes knows as “bible” ) to program few generations of people so they would be controllable without constant fear of literally spear in their asses, does not make this preparation any better than the mass-murders and mind-rapes today.
And you convince yourself that god told you to go and kill people in his name? What a wonderful excuse.
BTW, god just called, he thinks it’s wonderful idea to bite your cat’s head off, because it has no proper respect for god, only meowing and wanking the stupid tail! Prepare your pets for the KINGDOM!
April 24th, 2007 at 12:16 pm
mdm-adph (#228)
Prove the existence of any god and I will gladly get back to work.
April 24th, 2007 at 12:28 pm
Listen all, I believe in God, and I respect that you don’t.
And I do not have to prove anything, there are proves for whoever wants to see them.
Why is it so important to you all to make me not believe in Him.
Why do you care in the first place ?
Did He do bad things to you ?
If you don’t believe on him, why you even bother in talking about him ?
Doesn’t make sense how something you don’t believe in, bothers you so much.
Reading all these posts just made my faith a lot stronger…
Thank you all.
April 24th, 2007 at 12:33 pm
#129, this is olny example your father entering some mental state while making his prayers and probably he should thank the ministers who have manipulated him so well in the past that he could reach so deep states of trances, that he could fight with his sickness in ways traditional science and medicine is still baffled about.
For me it just shows the power inside everyone of us that we surpress and never learn to use, only in the biggest discomfort or distress SOME of us find this part of themselves. Sometimes it seems the concept of god is used to HIDE this power: if something mystical happens, why would you want people to know THEY can do it? how could you keep all knowing all powerful beings in a mental cage like we are today? That’s why you are all weak and sinners and god is allmighty, because planet full of allmighties would just be a corporate managing-headache!
To use the illusion of god for reaching it is totally ok, just that it would work same well just naming it the “power of your own mind”.
but science will learn and EVOLVE while religious fanatics are just sitting^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hjumping and shouting and waiting for their miracles and saviours.
April 24th, 2007 at 12:57 pm
235: I do believe in myself, And I do believe in God…
You sound like you could be a super hero…
Why are you wasting your time reading all these stupid comments ?
April 24th, 2007 at 1:06 pm
Science and Religion can coexist fine.
As long those who are theist don’t believe their faith trumps science.
If you believe the bible is a series of fables that gives you life lessons and a moral compass.
Fine. I have no issues with that whatsoever.
IF they believe that the bible shows how the universe and man were created.
Then we have a problem.
I just don’t get the “it’s true that god exists” statement. Just because someone WANTS something to be true doesn’t make it true. It’s a statement of faith. Not fact.
April 24th, 2007 at 1:11 pm
#140, probably there always was and always will be SOMETHING to call god, just because it’s so far beyond what we understand. and if we happen to run out of those things, I’m sure some grumpy bored guy would push “the button” just for the fun of it and everything will start all over again.
The utmost confidence referenced in #137 is not faith in the same sence as religious people “need only one answer”. It is exactly this: confidence, that given enough time, we will JUST FIGURE IT OUT!
Whether we need to evolve or genetically re-engineer ourselves to grow third half of the brain or invent some machine that considers us it’s gods, I have no idea YET. But I will, or my grand grand grand.. children will.
THIS is the utmost confidence and has NOTHING to do with believing in science or god or anything mystical. It’s just plain-old skill and ability-thing mixed with creative thinking and enough wisdom to plan ahead few steps.
The same way you KNOW you can walk and you are probably UTMOST CONFIDENT, that you could walk to the other side of the town, if you had enough free time, but it’s still good idea to drive a car. and I am utmost confident we figure out how to make them electric AGAIN without crashing the oil and energy industry ;)
and whoever invented the religion, they sure were afraid of people figuring things out. So let’s find out why!
PS. car is not god in this story. it’s just a car.
April 24th, 2007 at 1:32 pm
If you found a clock and examined the mechanism within it, you would probably think that this intricate mechanism was not the outcome of mere chance, that it had been designed.
Now look at the universe; is it possible that such an intricate mechanism, from the orbits of planets round the sun to the cells in your fingernails could all have happened by chance? Surely, this enormously complex mechanism has been designed, and the being that designed it must be God.
April 24th, 2007 at 1:33 pm
#236, because I want you to help me to figure things out. Obviously it goes a bit faster when there are more people to try out different ideas! :)
I would say the “god idea” was pretty genius stuff to get people from where they were to where they are today, but it seems it gets in the way of doing things already.
I feel more frustration than satisfaction from all the circular reasoning and capsulating religion is trying to impose on minds. The most hilarious thing is, I DO UNDERSTAND how religion is exlpoiting the properties and flaws of human brain and reasoning abilities to train people and to lock them in, so I totally acknowledge the genius of guys who invented it, but well.. it was good, let’s try something even better now!
And that’s why I’m here: to tell you, that there is stuff you or I have NO IDEA about, so keep digging! Don’t let the concept of god be the universal answer of making your mind lazy and feeling, that yo already “have the ultimate answer” and to even try to figure out “what makes universe tick” would be the same blasphemous as to ask god to get naked and dance for you.
I don’t know about superheros, but have you noticed, that very many stories, even in bible, come from “SOMEWHERE” .. like the concept of superheroes comes from fact that there have been people doing extraordinary things in somebodys opinion. then it’s just the tendency of story-telling to exaggerate and add something more fantastical to it.. ( walking on water, anybody? ;) )
I am sure some at point in future everybody would look like superheros for us today.. but then it would be just normal, if it would be everybody.. right?
April 24th, 2007 at 1:37 pm
I have already figure it out, without God I am useless.
April 24th, 2007 at 1:43 pm
God is the perfect being. As He is most perfect, He must have all perfections. If God lacked existence He would not be perfect, as He is perfect he must exist.
April 24th, 2007 at 1:43 pm
#239: Ram, meet Richard Dawkins: http://richarddawkins.net
and “The Blind Watchmaker” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Blind_Watchmaker
no need to reinvent the explanations to every “nippy” question again, just because people are lazy or ignorant enough to read the whole books dedicated to ANSWER their silly questions.
April 24th, 2007 at 1:45 pm
#239, Ram:
You obviously have no knowledge of science.
Evolution breeds complexity from simplicity. That’s why everything natural you see looks designed. It has been slowly perfected over the course of billions of years.
April 24th, 2007 at 1:50 pm
I would have to argue that god only exists because someone with brainpower realized most people don’t have brainpower, and this was a good way to keep them from acquiring it. Faith is nice and all, but try as I might to buy into a religion, I can’t do it. It just seem so plainly obvious that it’s all BS conjured up to give people a reason to toil away.
There’s evidence to support things that happen in the bible, even evidence to back up events that would otherwise be fantastic. The problem is once you shine a shred of possibility on such an event, it’s immediately embraced as irrefutably true. I do whatever I have to do to keep an open mind with hopes that perhaps i’ll be proven wrong about my views on faith. Up until now, none such luck. It still just seems like a bunch of hooey.
But to say that God gave any one of us our brainpower in order to accomplish said task is an insult, and it completely invalidates the point of creating us in the first place. Why write a play that you have memorized, which nobody else will ever see? Give me all your crap about not understanding god’s mysterious ways. I’m willing to put faith into something, but this? Nah. I dont need proof for everything I always believe, but the staggering lack of proof on this topic, I can’t compensate for. Proof needs to be universal. Not interperetive. But I see so many ‘religous’ people (not all, mind you) that reject what’s clearly obvious for the exact reason so many of them condemn them.
You claim “Who’s Truth? Yours?”. I laugh in your face. The greatest problem with the devout is they refuse to acknowledge the possibility that the foundation of their beliefs is wrong. After all, that would be a lack of faith, and invalidate that belief, so they cant. A shockingly convenient trap, i’d say. Nothing more convenient than being able to answer any otherwise unanswerable question with “Thats the way god intended it”.
Like i’ve said. I’d love to be able to believe. The problem is it’s all too obviously bullshit to me. A convenient control mechanism. Make people fear that which they cannot control, to mask the fact they have far more control than they believe. What better way to control the masses? Religion *IS* the Opiate of the masses.
I’ve been called weak because I don’t believe. Ironic. I’m the one who doesnt need the delusion of an eternal reward to wake up every day, face it, and be happy. So who’s the weak one? Any venom so clearly embedded in my statements here as from years of being forced by political correctness to tone everything down. The argument that truly set me off was the ignorant fool who had the audacity to give god full credit for that which a person, on their own, struggled for who knows how long in order to understand. That offends me.
April 24th, 2007 at 1:56 pm
#241, what makes you think that with god there’s some USE for you? He is, after all, perfect, like #242 points out, even without you?!
Or the other way: why would you think there is less use of you, when you would figure out, that something you have thought of until now as “god” has actually much more earthly or in this sense, “universely” explanation?
Consider this: what’s the use of ripples in water? to you or to god or to anybody?
and #242, you provoked it: do you often find yourself going in circles? :) If not, then know, that you were.. going in circles, right now. I undesrtand, you have been told, that this is logic, but I have to tell you, it is not. logic begins somewhere and ends somewhere else. you begin and end with the same thing. this is called close path, simplest of which is called circle.
go Google it.
April 24th, 2007 at 1:57 pm
[Comment Removed Due to Request]
April 24th, 2007 at 1:59 pm
who created the evolution?? is that an accident too??
April 24th, 2007 at 2:10 pm
#?%#$%&(;^@&@$%&$
April 24th, 2007 at 2:13 pm
246:
I do find myself going in circles.
so do you and so does the whole earth.
Perhaps that is why the world spins around every day ?
April 24th, 2007 at 2:22 pm
Evolution is not the work of God. It’s principle refutes the concept of “inteligent design” which Christians believe is the only way man could have been created. Evolution is an accident, a cosmic coincidence.
April 24th, 2007 at 2:26 pm
The winner is clear:
http://www.google.com/trends?q=god%2Cgoogle&ctab=0&geo=all&date=all
April 24th, 2007 at 2:28 pm
Ram. If god designed the universe… who designed god? And how did she do it?
No one created the universe or “designed’ it.
Organisms are so suited to their environments because of natural selection and mutation over billions of years.
Why need a designer when evolution works on its own just fine.
April 24th, 2007 at 2:46 pm
Steve_C, Everything that exists has a cause. However, there must at some time have been a cause prior to all other causes. This ‘prime mover’ or first cause is necessary to explain existence. This first cause is God.
April 24th, 2007 at 3:07 pm
I know the concept of infinity is a big one. But maybe there is no first cause. Just an endless series of expansion and implosions. Or something weirder. More weird than we can imagine.
It may be something that’s impossible to know, but it’s an answer that can only be found through science and discovery, if at all.
Your “god did it” explanation is not an answer, it’s a cop out. It takes alot of arrogance to believe that the christian god of the bible designed the infinite universe just for some miniscule number of followers. There are more stars than people on this planet… more stars than grains of sand on this planet. To think it’s meant just for us is foolish.
April 24th, 2007 at 3:09 pm
Re: post 247. What I posted here earlier was a total fabrication. I offer a full retraction of anything said in my post. I simply made it all up. Sorry to have wasted anyone’s time.
April 24th, 2007 at 3:18 pm
Hey VGC!
Wow. So you took offense to my previous statement and are reacting so strongly as a result…interesting. The irony of this conversation is that I’m in the IT industry and actually do have an idea of what it probably took for the brilliant mind(s) at Google to create a search engine as I work with programmers all day long, every day (some who happen to believe and acknowledge God in their capabilities).
What I’m saying here is that I simply believe God makes men what they are with the free will to decide whether or not to embrace who He is and the gifts (or capabilities) he’s given us and for each one of us, our gift is different. If a person chooses not to believe or utilize their gift, that’s between them and God (or the wall since they don’t believe anyway) but that doesn’t necessarily mean they will be any less gifted. I believe God blesses the believer and non-believer alike. If this makes me an “ignorant fool”, than so be it. If I am wrong, then what? You feel so much better because you’re right? Then what? Always being right is highly overrated VGC and I think you know that. It all boils down to a personal choice and experience and it’s certainly your right to disagree with it. Seems like you’re trying to convince yourself of where you stand more than anyone else.
So go ahead, attack. I’ll still wish you the best in life anyway.
April 24th, 2007 at 3:45 pm
I have to ask, do animals have their own religions? Obviously if they do it would not be the same religions as humans. Maybe dolphins with their high intelligence have a bit of a superstitous side to them.
Speaking of superstitions, most people stop believing in them when they grow older. I don’t know about you but there are no boogeymen under the bed, no Santa Clause, 4-leaf clovers and rabbit feet do not work, walking under ladders is not a recipe for disaster. An athiest just happens to think of God in the same way.
April 24th, 2007 at 4:00 pm
“A belief in God relies entirely on faith. I would put my belief in empirical evidence over faith in a imaginary friend for grown ups any day.”
It takes more faith to believe in the THEORY of evolution than it does to believe in God.
When you understand all the facts, it takes more faith.
Mathematically speaking, it is IMPOSSIBLE for even a single cell organisms to have formed on its own. Let alone the multi-billion celled organisms all over this planet… let further alone the billions of multi-billions celled organisms all around us.
If you dig deep enough, there’s no way you CAN’T prove the existence of a Divine Being… and Jesus being the Son of that God.
April 24th, 2007 at 4:13 pm
Let’s all listen to what Josh said on response #175, I am putting up the end of his response because it was well said.
Hey Darwin, where did you go? Respond when you come up with an answer…
I shall conclude this heavy response with some humor:
The scientist approached God and said, “Listen, we’ve decided we no longer need you. Nowadays, we can extract stem cells, clone people, transplant hearts, and all kinds of things that were once considered miraculous.”
God patiently heard him out, and then said, “All right. To see whether or not you still need me, why don’t we have a little man-making contest!”
“Okay, great!” the scientist said.
“Now, we’re going to do this just like I did back in the old days with Adam,” God said.
“That’s fine,” replied the scientist and he bent down to scoop up a handful of dirt.
“Whoa!” God said, shaking his head in disapproval. “Not so fast, pal. You get your own dirt.”
Come back to me when you have broken the second law of thermodynamics - matter can neither be created nor destroyed.
April 24th, 2007 at 4:16 pm
Uhg. Yeah I know. You can’t prove there’s an invisible amazonian goddess sitting on my lap either.
It takes no faith whatsoever to understand that evolution is a fact. All it takes is the facts.
How exactly is it unlikely mathematically speaking? We’re talking “mathematically” billions of years for evolution to work. We have the fossils. The DNA. We can even trace back through DNA the spread of homo sapiens across the entire planet.
The “it’s impossible” argument is an old tired one spouted by creationists for ages.
Evolution=IMPOSSIBLE!
God=POSSIBLE!
Umm… yeahhhhh… right.
April 24th, 2007 at 4:33 pm
Umm yeah, so Mike (#260) is right when he says Josh shut everyone up on response #175. Read it if you feel like being humbled.
April 24th, 2007 at 4:44 pm
Oh jesus. The 2nd law of thermodynamics??? Please. That applies only to a closed system.
The earth is not a closed system. Look up at the bright ball in the sky (not directly!)
guess what warms the earth? Guess why plants are green.
You people need to get an education. try talkorigins.org and talkreason.org for a start.
April 24th, 2007 at 4:45 pm
Still angry? Read another of Josh’s responses: #135. Included is part of his response and the link he gave about Darwin’s findings.
Here’s one that those evolutionists “forget” to include about Darwin’s findings:
http://www.carm.org/evo_questions/darwineye.htm
Even the one who is credited with the theory of evolution admits…well..he was wrong. (Ouch!)
April 24th, 2007 at 4:45 pm
A man walks into a barber shop, as hes getting his hair cut he starts a conversation with the barber, they end up talking about religion and God, the barber says,
- I do not believe in God,
- How so, asks the man,
- Well if you look outside, all the people suffering, all the abandoned child’s, all the assassins and bad people around if God existed there wouldn’t be so much suffering and pain, I can not think of a God that would let this happen.
The man just listened and didn’t say anything to avoid starting an argument, when the barber finished his work, the man paid him and walked out the door, outside he sees a homeless guy with long hair and a big beard, then walks back into the shop, and tells the barber.
-You know what, barbers don’t exist,
-How come the barber says, Here I am, I’m a barber,
-If barbers existed there wouldn’t be people with long hair and long beards like that man outside,
-No, the thing is that people like him don’t come to me.
-Exactly he says, that is the point, God exists, the thing is people don’t go to him, that is why there is so much pain and suffering.
Look for God, He will take care of the rest.
April 24th, 2007 at 4:51 pm
i am my god
U?
http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-6509832173098179322
April 24th, 2007 at 4:54 pm
Steve_C (#263), it is nice to see you are finally coming to your senses and calling on the name of the Lord (though not in a good way). Once again you have not proved anything, stop diverting attention away from the subject at hand. So then, my “educated” friend, how do you create matter…? The 2nd law of thermodynamics applies to physical systems to be more “precise”. Fine, you want a closed system? Try the universe for starters…
April 24th, 2007 at 4:57 pm
Do you know how much research has been done on eyes?! Are you kidding me?!
Not only do biologist know how various types of eyes have evolved they understand the genetic mechanisms that are involved in forming the eye.
Did you bother to read the comments below? That post on carm.org?
1) The question was not correctly presented, I believe. In his Origin. Chap. VI, he has a section entitled “Organs of Extreme Perfection”, which begins, “To suppose that the eye with all its inimitable contrivances for adjusting the focus for different distances, for admitting different amounts of light, and for the correction of spherical and chromatic aberration, could have been formed by natural selection seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest degree”. He then goes on to state it could have happened.
2) The “Perils of Pauline” strategy Darwin employs here is his key approach esp. in Chs. 6–9. He begins by making a large concession, but then adds that once we understand his way of viewing things the objections will diminish or disappear. Repeatedly he seems to put the theory at risk through theses seemingly damaging admissions, but then rescues it. What always fascinates me about our hero is that while on the one hand he affirms that he appeals to reason his very view of reason as this passage in its entirety would show involves active imagination. Of, course imagination is central to science–but as a part of reason not in opposition to it. The honorable gentlepersons opposite, starting with Chuck himself are engaged in an epistemic revolution. What is at issue is to get the reader to fill in the blanks by analogy and then to accept Chuck’s particular blend of reason and imagination as reason. In part it is. But then there is the other part that requires us to extrapolate the process even without evidence.
April 24th, 2007 at 5:06 pm
You’re just moving the goal posts. Energy is added constantly to our system (earth) by the sun.
But now you want to talk about energy from nothing fine.
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CF/CF101.html
Formation of the universe from nothing need not violate conservation of energy. The gravitational potential energy of a gravitational field is a negative energy. When all the gravitational potential energy is added to all the other energy in the universe, it might sum to zero (Guth 1997, 9-12,271-276; Tryon 1973).
April 24th, 2007 at 5:15 pm
Lol! Those comments are hilarious! Talk about beating around the bush because they can’t find any solid evidence! This is what we call writing BS to make it seem like you are eloquently explaining “Chuck’s” faults. “BS may get you to the top, but it won’t keep you there.” Imagination? That word and science do not mix my friend! There is not one concrete phrase in these comments whatsoever. They continue to search and search but still no answers. You have to give me better than that Steve_C (#268)…
April 24th, 2007 at 5:23 pm
And how can the universe be a closed system?? It’s infinite. The energy in it is finite. But that doesn’t make it a closed system.
Just learn about the 2nd Law. And come back when you’re ready.
http://www.entropysimple.com/
April 24th, 2007 at 5:24 pm
Steve_C seems so confident that science has found all the answers, knows all the reasons for our origin and believes evolution is an established fact (and not a theory?!) Wow! Please educate me further. I’m impressed!
but . . . why hasn’t science even begun to figure out how to cure cancer, aids, oh even a common virus? If we know everything and are so sure and how everything works . . .
April 24th, 2007 at 5:27 pm
Steve_C, “Oh ye of little faith.” Once again you haven’t proven anything my friend. These are propositions, imaginations of men bent on disproving God because they do not want to accept a higher being. The question now turns to you, “Do you even read these responses carefully?” Notice the response clearly saying “might” (lol). Keep giving these lame responses, I always enjoy a good laugh. By the way, a certain energy cannot be created without the loss of another form of energy from an entity.
April 24th, 2007 at 5:30 pm
Gee David… has any science been done since Darwin? Yes.
Creationists love to obsess over Darwin and skip the last century of evolutionary biologists.
So how could the complex eye evolve?! Darwin wasn’t sure. But he had some ideas.
Wow! Look modern day scientists have an answer! They’re handy like that.
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CB/CB301.html
This is the quintessential example of the argument from incredulity. The source making the claim usually quotes Darwin saying that the evolution of the eye seems “absurd in the highest degree”. However, Darwin follows that statement with a three-and-a-half-page proposal of intermediate stages through which eyes might have evolved via gradual steps (Darwin 1872).
photosensitive cell
aggregates of pigment cells without a nerve
an optic nerve surrounded by pigment cells and covered by translucent skin
pigment cells forming a small depression
pigment cells forming a deeper depression
the skin over the depression taking a lens shape
muscles allowing the lens to adjust
All of these steps are known to be viable because all exist in animals living today. The increments between these steps are slight and may be broken down into even smaller increments. Natural selection should, under many circumstances, favor the increments. Since eyes do not fossilize well, we do not know that the development of the eye followed exactly that path, but we certainly cannot claim that no path exists.
Evidence for one step in the evolution of the vertebrate eye comes from comparative anatomy and genetics. The vertebrate ??-crystallin genes, which code for several proteins crucial for the lens, are very similar to the Ciona ??-crystallin gene. Ciona is an urochordate, a distant relative of vertebrates. Ciona’s single ??-crystallin gene is expressed in its otolith, a pigmented sister cell of the light-sensing ocellus. The origin of the lens appears to be based on co-optation of previously existing elements in a lensless system.
Nilsson and Pelger (1994) calculated that if each step were a 1 percent change, the evolution of the eye would take 1,829 steps, which could happen in 364,000 generations.
April 24th, 2007 at 5:44 pm
I love how David wants to use twisted views of science, essentially lies, to disprove evolution and or the big bang. But when I show links that show the statements to be lies, then it’s just scientists wanting to say there is no god.
Which is it? You can’t pick and choose.
Science doesn’t have all the answers. But it keeps going where theists would like to stop.
Do you want scientists to keep looking for cures (which is an immensely difficult task because, of evolution, the viruses keep adapting believe it or not) or should we just stop all research and spend our energies praying.
Oh and science had nothing to do with the Polio or Small Pox vaccine… right?
Science does not give our lives meaning. We do.
And to the rube who says the Evolution is ONLY a theory…
The word theory, in the context of science, does not imply uncertainty. It means “a coherent group of general propositions used as principles of explanation for a class of phenomena” (Barnhart 1948). In the case of the theory of evolution, the following are some of the phenomena involved. All are facts:
Life appeared on earth more than two billion years ago;
Life forms have changed and diversified over life’s history;
Species are related via common descent from one or a few common ancestors;
Natural selection is a significant factor affecting how species change.
Many other facts are explained by the theory of evolution as well.
The theory of evolution has proved itself in practice. It has useful applications in epidemiology, pest control, drug discovery, and other areas (Bull and Wichman 2001; Eisen and Wu 2002; Searls 2003).
Besides the theory, there is the fact of evolution, the observation that life has changed greatly over time. The fact of evolution was recognized even before Darwin’s theory. The theory of evolution explains the fact.
If “only a theory” were a real objection, creationists would also be issuing disclaimers complaining about the theory of gravity, atomic theory, the germ theory of disease, and the theory of limits (on which calculus is based). The theory of evolution is no less valid than any of these. Even the theory of gravity still receives serious challenges (Milgrom 2002). Yet the phenomenon of gravity, like evolution, is still a fact.
Creationism is neither theory nor fact; it is, at best, only an opinion. Since it explains nothing, it is scientifically useless.
April 24th, 2007 at 5:49 pm
Steve_C, this again brings a smile to my face! Your last statement is littered with superficial statements like “if” and the always enjoyed “might”. Can you give me some of your own words and stop wasting space with other ignorant “educated” people?
Your right, the universe is infinite, just like God…hmm. This also means that energy is being added to the universe somehow and thus the energy is never finite. Try explaining that one…
Understanding how the eye works is simply a path to understanding God and His creation. So…”if” the eye changed 1 percent over time, how come the process has magically stopped now? Where is evolution today, where is the “change”? Don’t give nonsense, because everything you see today is simply adaptation.
When you fully understand something, you can replicate it exactly. Can we replicate the human eye cell by cell? I think not…
April 24th, 2007 at 5:51 pm
I love how David wants to use twisted views of science, essentially lies, to disprove evolution and or the big bang. But when I show links that show the statements to be lies, then it’s just scientists wanting to say there is no god.
Which is it? You can’t pick and choose.
Science doesn’t have all the answers. But it keeps going where theists would like to stop.
Do you want scientists to keep looking for cures (which is an immensely difficult task because, of evolution, the viruses keep adapting believe it or not) or should we just stop all research and spend our energies praying.
Oh and science had nothing to do with the Polio or Small Pox vaccine… right?
Science does not give our lives meaning. We do.
April 24th, 2007 at 5:54 pm
And to the rube who says the Evolution is ONLY a theory…
The word theory, in the context of science, does not imply uncertainty. It means “a coherent group of general propositions used as principles of explanation for a class of phenomena” (Barnhart 1948). In the case of the theory of evolution, the following are some of the phenomena involved. All are facts:
Life appeared on earth more than two billion years ago;
Life forms have changed and diversified over life’s history;
Species are related via common descent from one or a few common ancestors;
Natural selection is a significant factor affecting how species change.
Many other facts are explained by the theory of evolution as well.
The theory of evolution has proved itself in practice. It has useful applications in epidemiology, pest control, drug discovery, and other areas (Bull and Wichman 2001; Eisen and Wu 2002; Searls 2003).
Besides the theory, there is the fact of evolution, the observation that life has changed greatly over time. The fact of evolution was recognized even before Darwin’s theory. The theory of evolution explains the fact.
If “only a theory” were a real objection, creationists would also be issuing disclaimers complaining about the theory of gravity, atomic theory, the germ theory of disease, and the theory of limits (on which calculus is based). The theory of evolution is no less valid than any of these. Even the theory of gravity still receives serious challenges (Milgrom 2002). Yet the phenomenon of gravity, like evolution, is still a fact.
Creationism is neither theory nor fact; it is, at best, only an opinion. Since it explains nothing, it is scientifically useless.
April 24th, 2007 at 6:10 pm
Copied from somewhere. Can’t remember sources.
TOP TEN SIGNS YOU’RE A CHRISTIAN
10- You vigorously deny the existence of thousands of gods claimed by other religions, but feel outraged when someone denies the existence of your god.
9- You feel insulted and “dehumanised” when scientists say that people evolved from lesser life forms, but you have no problem with the Biblical claim that we were created from dirt.
8- You laugh at polytheists, but you have no problem believing in a Trinity god.
7- Your face turns purple when you hear of the “atrocities” attributed to Allah, but you don’t even flinch when hearing about how God/Jehovah slaughtered all the babies of Egypt in “Exodus” and ordered the elimination of entire ethnic groups in “Joshua” — including women, children, and trees!
6- You laugh at Hindu beliefs that deify humans, and Greek claims about gods sleeping with women, but you have no problem believing that the Holy Spirit impregnated Mary, who then gave birth to a man-god who got killed, came back to life and then ascended into the sky.
5- You are willing to spend your life looking for little loop-holes in the scientifically established age of the Earth (4.55 billion years), but you find nothing wrong with believing dates recorded by pre-historic tribesmen sitting in their tents and guessing that the Earth is a couple of generations old.
4- You believe that the entire population of this planet with the exception of those who share your beliefs — though excluding those in all rival sects — will spend Eternity in an infinite Hell of Suffering. And yet you consider your religion the most “tolerant” and “loving”.
3- While modern science, history, geology, biology, and physics have failed to convince you otherwise, some idiot rolling around on the floor speaking in “tongues” may be all the evidence you need to prove Christianity.
2- You define 0.01% as a “high success rate” when it comes to answered prayers. You consider that to be evidence that prayer works. And you think that the remaining 99.99% FAILURE was simply the will of God.
1- You actually know a lot less than many Atheists and Agnostics do about the Bible, Christianity, and church history — but still call yourself a Christian.
Is that enough blindness to make you think, anyone?
Cheers
April 24th, 2007 at 6:21 pm
Steve_C, I am glad to see a few of your own words in your responses. However, your last response once again quotes “facts” with no proof behind them; and you once again waste all of our time with useless text. You are right, Creation is a theory just as much as evolution is. There is no (yes none) hard evidence of evolution either. Another law of thermodynamics that you may or may not know is that “all things tend toward disorder” (in simplest terms). How can you say that such an intricate and ordered structure came from a giant explosion? LOL! This is ludicrous! The only logical explanation is that the universe had to be created by an ordered Being, God in this case…
April 24th, 2007 at 6:28 pm
David you’re just wrong. And deluded. I’m done.
You’re a true creationist. Don’t let science shake your faith. It’s all you’ve got.
April 24th, 2007 at 6:31 pm
Briar Patch #3. “Entropy is disorder” (Entropy is NOT disorder!)
This confusion about disorder and entropy comes from an 1898 statement by a brilliant theoretical physicist whose mathematical contributions to thermodynamics and entropy are still totally valid. However, his attempt to interpret entropy in simple language was incorrect because only after his death in 1906 came an understanding of molecular behavior. Order/disorder became increasingly obsolete to apply to entropy and the second law when the existence of quantized energy levels in physics and chemistry was generally accepted after the mid-1920s.
Although order/disorder is still present in some elementary chemistry texts as a gimmick for guessing about entropy changes (and useful to experts in some areas of thermodynamics), it is both misleading and an anachronism for beginners in chemistry. It has been deleted from most first-year university chemistry textbooks in the US.. In the humanities and popular literature, the repeated use of entropy in connection with “disorder” (in the multitude of its different common meanings) has caused enormous intellectual harm. Entropy has been thereby dissociated from the quintessential connection with its atomic/molecular energetic foundation. The result is that a nineteenth century error about entropy’s meaning has been generally and mistakenly applied to disorderly parties, dysfunctional personal lives, and even disruptions in international events. This may make pages of metaphor but it is totally unrelated to thermodynamic entropy in physico-chemical science that actually does impact our lives. It is as ridiculous as talking about how Einstein’s relativity theory can be applied to a person’s undesirable relatives in Chicago.
http://www.entropysimple.com/content.htm#intro
April 24th, 2007 at 6:34 pm
Yay! That’s one down! Bye Steve_C! Hope your search for truth goes well!
April 24th, 2007 at 6:48 pm
At least you get results from google. God on the other hand…
April 24th, 2007 at 6:50 pm
Steve_C, stop giving me this useless stuff that can’t even be proven. Plus I want to hear what YOU have to say, though I am beginning to believe this is not possible (kind of like evolution). I never explicitly used the word “entropy”. Though this may have been implied, the fact that all things tend toward disorder (not entropy) is still true! Is it not? For instance, your mind is slowly tending toward disorder as a result of thinking evolution is fact. “Heaven and earth shall pass away, but My (the Lord’s) words shall not.”
April 24th, 2007 at 8:37 pm
I believe what we have been discussing about in this thread, intentionally or not, is also about humanity; its strengths and weaknesses, regardless of your belief either in Christianity, Intelligent Design or atheism.
Now, it is hoped that you can easily accept, as humans, we do not need god (or a higher being in case you subscribe to ID) in order for our human race to have humanism, ie. love of our humanity. If needed, it can be proven that we need no god to validate our capacity to develop and have humanity towards our fellowmen (and women). Here is proof: Confucius (circa 551-479 BC) said to his students that: “Surely it is the maxim of loving-kindness: Do not unto others that you would not have them do unto you.” That’s half a millennium before Jesus taught the same thing: Love your neighbour as yourself!
If you don’t, then ask yourself this question: if your cause or religion, in any way, has the potential to harm mankind then why you do help keep spreading that cause to your fellowmen. Put another way, where is your love for humanity?
Here are a few examples to remind you.
- The crusades killed hundreds of thousands of people for what really was a bloody place called Jerusalem (yet at the same time Christians were professing their god to be omnipresent!)
- The Inquisitions (Medieval, Spanish, Roman and Protestant: All in the name of Jesus, a slightly insane guy who called himself son of god!) by the Churches killed hundreds of thousands of innocent people. Wrecked the lives of tens of thousands more.
- Exterminated the a few races in the name of their god, eg. The Incas were exterminated for the spread of Christianity, led by Spain or course.
- Indirectly responsible more HIV-affected people in the third world (ie. Catholic teachings prohibits contraception).
- Indirectly responsible for poor and mal-nutrition of many people and children in the third world.
- Killed one another for the glorification of the same god (Puritans, Irish Catholics and Bristish Protestants. To name a few examples).
- Blamed the Jews for killing Jesus (as if Pontius Pilate were a just Governor) and took revenge by killing millions. (Hitler’s Mein Kampf: “I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord..”
- Paedophilia by clergymen. In the dock are: Catholic Church, Anglican Church, Baptist Church (to name a few). Followed by the Church’s top hierarchy attempt to sweep this issue under the carpet. Contrasted this to Jesus’ teachings ‘If anyone causes a little child to loose faith in me…..he should be drowned in the deep sea.’
And so on.
It a simple premise that if Christian’s noble cause is to save mankind but what was also done in their god, creator or Jesus’ name includes the above then it is simply a lack of purely moral compass to look the other way, closing one’s own eyes and keeps assuring oneself that Christianity and /or Intelligent Design are/is all worthy cause to mankind because science cannot prove every thing. You simply miss an important point.
And it’s called love of humanity.
April 24th, 2007 at 8:56 pm
I have to take acception to this one
> - Indirectly responsible more HIV-affected people in the
> third world (ie. Catholic teachings prohibits contraception).
This is a crock. The spread of HIV is because of rampant infidelity within marriages in certain countries. This is certainly not something that the Catholic Church encourages.
It’s complete nonsense that a married guy would go out and sleep with countless prostitutes etc. completely in contravention to the laws of the Catholic Church, but then refuse to use contraception because he’s a devout Catholic. What rubbish. It will not matter what the Catholic Church teaches in these countries, while there is the attitude that infidelity is fully permissible if it’s the man doing it.
Incidentally in the countries with the biggest problems with HIV, Catholicism is not the predominant religion.
April 24th, 2007 at 9:12 pm
Ok, I read the ramblings of David and Steve_C and this is just hopeles! :)
Because how can you even begin to argue, David, if “something that cannot be disproven” automatically exists, because “you want to and nobody can definitely say you are wrong, because things you are talking about are untochable”
OR the more disturbing thing: somehow FACT became for you something needing a proof. So for example, How do you prove you had a dispute at all? Is it enough “proof” if enough people come here and see that it really took place, or do you need to have all the books about how the electricity was discovered, how the computers were developed, how the humans got created, how the conciousness awoke and so on in some intricate all-explaining formula to be proof, that you are here clashing your wits?
because that’s how theories work: you look around you and try to make sense of things. facts are the “make them or break them” tools for theory. if theory explains all the facts you have collected and then somebody comes along and factually proves something that goes against the theory, the theory is obviously wrong. That’s how you know it!
So the FACTS ARE NO PROOF, FACTS are the building blocks that you can use to test your theory.
And basically the same with the theory of god, everything around us is a FACT ( like you and me existing, in whatever form it is we are, is a FACT that you try to explain with your god-theory ) or creation theory, or “origin of everything” theory.
Another sad point in arguments like this is, that even by claiming, that science has little of no proof of anything useful for explaining the origins of universe, religion has even less!
“god did it!” is no fact you can actually demonstrate! In this sense, I could tell you that I did it, but I will not tell you how, because you have to believe it. You would have the same exact amount of factual proof for that as you would have when you say that god did it. because you also can not prove, that I am not some aspect of god only here so you could communicate with god in mysterious ways. and I could not show you my superpowers, because then you would know and could not believe any more!
and prayers and miracles.. well. take big enough amount of people, and statistically anything is possible. how hard it is to imagine, that out of millions and millions sick people, few of them actually recover from their sickness on their own, nothing mysterious, nothing “out of this world” just “plain simple” biology, even if WE don’t know YET, how it’s done does not mean, that things like that need some “out of this universe” intervention. It’s just something to find out about. Now, if miracles WOULD happen few times every day or if there would somebody kind enough to get sick and heal again and again, we would be able to OBSERVE the facts and start building another theory, that would hopefully explain it to your and my satisfaction.
I REALLY don’t need god to be able to think, I just do it. If I make some god-thingie angry with this, then by your theory, I would have no way to find it out. and neither do you. so why should I believe you or anybody else about this?!
And the issue of creating matter out of nothing is observed already today: quantum theory explaines particles popping in and out of EXISTENCE CONSTANTLY EVERYWHERE whether it’s empty space or space already “inhabited” by the anomalies we call stable particles. And I have no doubt, that given enough time, we will figure out, how this thing actually works.
And if you come back to the purpose and “why”, then it’s for me the same question, as to “what purpose have ripples on the water?”
Actually I have better theory for you:
We humans, WERE created by superior intelligence, only this intelligence was not god, but just somebody much more evolved race of beings, than ourselves. And that they actually put this DESIRE AND HUNGER FOR PURPOSE in us so it would be easier to give us one later, as they see pleased.
Purpose itself has nothing to do with absolutism. because it will quickly iterate into “what’s the purpose of existing” and to even begin to find the answers to that, we would have to start considering the benefits of existing versus not existing. as you understand, this would be very one-sided discussion indeed, as non-existing would have very little to say about that.
so there is my current theory: all the matter and purpose you hunger for is just a ripple, imbalance in space-time, like ripples going up and down on water. you say everything tends to go towards chaos and disorder? go and explain, what makes ripples on water go away after a while.
there are SO MANY “special cases” that you try to put against eachother and make contradict to demonstrate the pointlessness of some theory compared to other trying to claim in the end, that the existance of god is only emm FACT?!? that can’t be faced against anything like that? that even the existance itself is proof of gods existance?
Do you notice how existance just proved itself in last sentence? because wouldn’t god also need the existance, or is god god even without existance? well.. obviously for you, it is. for me, it’s just silly word-game. Because it’s so contradictory the sentence should collapse on itself and take the rest of the universe with it. For me the mere fact that this is not happening proves, that there can’t be something that does not exist creating something that exists. and then just pop along with the ride, into existance.
Or if creating matter was for you the ulitmate proof that god is allmighty. where the frack you take the idiotic “escape clause”, that GOD ALWAYS EXISTED?!? because with that, you mostly wash all this creating thing down the toilet: this means that SOMETHING always existed. and I have no trouble understanding, that SOMETHING existing causes something more to exist. we see this today: particle colliders using ridiculous amounts of energy BRINGING all kinds of exotic stuff into EXISTANCE!!! Now we have to just figure out, how to keep the stuff from falling back into nothing.
but why does your god theory end there? why not go all the way: how did god APPEEAR in this existance that we so happily share with him? how is it more simple to believe, that something infinitely complex and perfect and all-knowing always existed and CAUSING “among other things” the existence of the universe we know versus universe itself is just an imbalance or ripple of energy which will eventually settle down and go back into something stable and neutral, like maybe.. not-existing?
ok, I could go on like this endlessly, ALL MY OWN WORDS like you asked, no quotes or links, even if you might find others ideas I have found likeable and made my own. but that might be just something I would be able to come up myself given enough time, sadly, few generations of lifetimes in that case ( which I sadly and factually don’t have )
this all said, I am utmost certain, your only way to counter this is telling me, that god has said, this and that and this is the proof, what else do you need. So only way I take this as a FACT would be, if you and at least few other people .. maybe a million or two, were present at the time of his visit and you have actually your own recollection of him telling you this.
As I recall even in bible there is some sort of arch-angel thingy that SPEAKS FOR GOD, and his main appearances are in burning bushes and where else.. which can somehow pretty easily be mistaken as anything, considering the effect flickering flames have on human mind existing in braind with tendency to FIND ORDER IN CAHOS and likeness with something it already knows. Isn’t the biggest most basic joy of human brain to REcognize something dear? to notice a parrern and then notice it again and again?
enough. your blow in this INFINITE battle of wits, please :)
PS. if nothing else, then me making some spelling errors definitely proves, that I have no clue about english language or the concept of coherent thought, so everything I said is pointless anyway :)
April 24th, 2007 at 9:40 pm
confessing themselves to be wise, they became fools.
April 24th, 2007 at 10:20 pm
Too many cynics and unbelievers out there; no wonder the U.S is going to hell in a hand basket.
April 24th, 2007 at 10:21 pm
oh billy, that sounds exactly like something out of bible: open to interpret in any way necessary having no real grounds except one story as an example to go with it. designed to sound like something barely out of grasp by literally, making as little sense as possible indicating, that almost not understanding it means some lack of depth or enligthment. this plays in all the woonderful ways with basic FEARS of “little people”:
who would like to be fools?
wouldn’t everybody like to be smart?
oh, I can’t say I’m smart, I would be fool! damn! this has to have some deeper meaning!! because god said it!! ok, I’ll be quiet and pretend I understand it and maybe it will make sense if I find god, let’s keep looking!
all this uncertainty and doubt just because they wouldn’t have enough balls to see, that the sentence is all about fears and nothing about actually meaning something particular.
because taken to extremes, it would tell everybody to shut their crap, because nobody can know everything except god. and this itself is again just the construct to keep everybody in doubt and mallable.
let’s hear somebodys ramblings now, how this can’t be taken literally and how reading the rest of the bible wuld give me some clues to “interpret” it .. and the rest of it will become clear, if I open my heart and mind and let it sinnk in WITHOUT ANY CRITICISM and after it becomes another twisted piece in my never-fitting pussle, I somehow have found myself in gods arms…
again, maximum points for knowing psychology and intricate workings of human insecurities, zero points for actually making an argument that can withstand and real-life experience.
April 24th, 2007 at 11:16 pm
Eugene said:
‘I have to take exception to this one:
> Indirectly responsible more HIV-affected people in the
> third world (ie. Catholic teachings prohibits contraception).
‘The spread of HIV is because of rampant infidelity within marriages in certain countries. This is certainly not something that the Catholic Church encourages.’
My reply:
Maybe an example will help illustrate my point in order to answer you objection.
How about the Catholic Church via its many missionaries in the third world has a policy of not giving free condoms to poor people in this part of the world when these people asked for, whether they are Catholic followers or not, based on the Church’s position on contraception.
Now i’d have thought that ignorance of a human biological need to want and have sex when one feels the urge too much to resist, based on the Church’s teachings is certainly NOT a socially sound excuse to refuse help to those in needs.
I also said that ‘indirect responsible for more..’, not MOST. So your point about Catholism not being the dominant religion is irrelevant.
Cheers
April 24th, 2007 at 11:26 pm
Chas Springer Says:
‘Too many cynics and unbelievers out there; no wonder the U.S is going to hell in a hand basket’.
Sweeping statement like yours indicates a lot about your level of understanding of humanities that churhmen and authority are rubbing their hands to have people like you in their flocks - Simply easy for them to control and manipulate people like you. Sorry about being hash but you clearly refuse to exercise your own judgement as a mature member of society, whatever that society may be, and blindly accept without questioning whatever your are told.
Cheers
April 25th, 2007 at 12:50 am
atheist and religous comment wars rock.
April 25th, 2007 at 1:15 am
> How about the Catholic Church via its many missionaries
> in the third world has a policy of not giving free condoms
> to poor people in this part of the world when these people
> asked for
When did the Catholic Church become responsible for the distribution of contraception to 3rd world contries? At least they’re there helping in whatever way they can.
It’s a drastic oversimplification to try to blame the problems in these countries on Catholic Missionaries, and a lack of condoms.
Perhaps if you were living and working in some of the most dangerous places on earth, and dedicating your life to helping the poor and destitute, you could do things differently. It’s very easy to point fingers from afar.
April 25th, 2007 at 3:19 am
Eugene Says:
‘When did the Catholic Church become responsible for the distribution of contraception to 3rd world contries?’
Now I don’t doubt about the charity missions of the Catholic Church or any other churches for that matter. But if a Church sets up hospitals and health clinics, as part of their extended missionaries works, in the third world to help ease the sufferings of poor people, shouldn’t these people’s cirscumstances and conditions be the primary concerns of these health facilities more than the Church’s doctrine. Don’t you think? Real giving means not expecting anything in return. Didn’t Jesus teach that?
Now, these poor folks understand less about things such as Sexual Transmitted Diseases hence the need for education and practical help in the meantime. Not from the Church’s strictly moral position on contraception, eg. No abortion (unless the mother is in danger at birth) and of course no condoms. That’s simple.
Lastly, you call my statement a drastic over-simplification. Yet you oversimplified my saying by transforming my ‘indirectly responsible’ into blaming without qualification. There is a subtle difference there. Now who overdramatises the point here?
I believe that my quote of ‘indirectly responsible for’ is a reasonable statement and stand by it. While you found it hard to accept. Well, we agree to disagree.
Cheers.
April 25th, 2007 at 5:54 am
This one is just hilarious!
April 25th, 2007 at 5:59 am
The ironic thing is that I first read it as an action, as in go google “can’t satisfy every search”. When doing that, this site ranks third (at 6am central time on April 25). Kind of a Catch-22.
==
philospeak.com
April 25th, 2007 at 9:19 am
David is a hypocrit. He makes challenging statements to evolution and the big bang that I know he didn’t come up with, they are the same arguments christians have made for decades, and when I go to scientific sources for refutations of his poor arguments… I’m the one not answering the question.
Entropy and disorder are not the same thing. And you did quote that all things tend to disorder… which is wrong. You’re using the tired argument. It shows your lack of understand of the 2nd Law. That’s why there’s tons of sites by scientists out there with answers to these same false arguements that christians make all the time.
Yet when you ask them if the bible is fact or fable/metaphor…
Fact: Homo Sapiens are Primates.
Fiction: The first woman was made from Adam’s rib.
April 25th, 2007 at 12:14 pm
Oh Steve_C it is so nice to see you again! You have delighted me once again. You just can’t get over it can you :( The truth of the matter is that I can neither prove Creation nor can you prove evolution. But the best part is…I don’t have to! There is no need for me to question God’s infinite wisdom because I humbled before Him. As someone who is studying molecular biology, my studies have simply made my belief in God, the Creator, even more strong. It makes me smile when I hear someone talking about the theory of evolution (I get it all the time with my teachers and textbooks) knowing that there is not one “fact” they can even prove. So, in this respect, I have experience dealing with people such as yourself. I say believe what you want, only time can tell who is right. Although, I will point out that we do not have “millions or billions of years.”
The thing that makes me the most sad is that you still relate yourself to a primate. Do you really value yourself that low? So you think life is simply a fleeting chance to mate and then become the dust of the earth? I have pity on your sould, my friend. I, for one, understand that I was “fearfully and wonderfully made” by Him. Hence, life has so much more meaning than we can begin to understand. It is hard to be humble, Steve_C, it really is. Stop trying (and I mean trying) to run away. You’ll see that God’s design is all around us.
I once again leave you with the question: “I know why I am here, do you…?”
April 25th, 2007 at 12:42 pm
if i have a search…. is it ok to say i God-ed it?
April 25th, 2007 at 12:59 pm
I do. It’s to enjoy life and be good to my fellow humans and to continue my genetic history if I desire. You only live once. And it’s for such a brief time. I have no delusions about an afterlife.
See, here’s a major difference, why do you value primates so low? We have a common ancestor, the chimpanzee and the gorilla and me… I have no problem with that. I respect and value all of nature. We’re all fellow beings on the little oasis in the cold uncaring universe. I look at my primate cousins and see an amazing part of nature. All living things are connected, not by a creator god but by the fact we all started from the same point billions of years ago.
I look around and see an amazing world, the way it really is.
You look at the world and see a fairy tale where you’re the most important because you feel it was created just for you.
I’m not the one he needs to be humble.
April 25th, 2007 at 2:29 pm
Another example of fake humility:
” It is hard to be humble, Steve_C, it really is ”
..
” I once again leave you with the question: “I know why I am here, do you…?” ”
I sum those things and get overconfident prick picking and choosing his facts.
I totally understand how you BELIEVE you know why you are here. Or even that you have executed your will and chosen the reason for yourself, like you choose your facts to keep yourself convinced. But having the arrogance to tell that you are right and everybody else are well.. “waiting to be proven wrong” is as far from humble you can get while still having a piece of coherent thought left.
I just remind you you don’t need billion years to wait for the answer, soon you’ll die and you can piss on all the rest from your heaven that you were right.. or not. If I see the yellow rain, I’ll get the hint!
April 25th, 2007 at 2:46 pm
Whew! What an intense forum this has been. You know, while I certainly understand it is fun and interesting to discover how the complexities of life have a “scientific explanation” it’s also sort of sad, sterile and trite that everything must be logically compartmentalized (even the unexplainable). Meanwhile those who don’t necessarily subscribe to this line of reasoning and reach for something else are “delusional”, “hypocritical”, “ignorant”, “uneducated”, “asses” “psychadelic idiots” etc. and yet many (not all, mind you) of the “tolerant” atheists, agnostics and secular humanists seem internally miserable and discontent even though they are sooo right and the only real joy they seem to experience here is when they shred the Christians and the core of their beliefs (Jesus Christ) to pieces and have “successfully” argued their own point to the ground.
And furthermore look at where “believing in ourselves” has gotten us thus far. Harmony? Hmmm…doesn’t appear so. People often end up most miserable, alone and with a heart that has dried up and turned to dust when they are focused solely on themselves so I don’t buy it. No point here other than “Check yo-self before you wreck yo-self”. One thing I’ve learned in life: Don’t ever think you have finally “arrived” because it is guaranteed that just when you think you have, Yoink! There goes the rug right out from under you and that goes for ANYONE. And as for “evolving to a higher consciousness”…just keep telling yourself that and lets see where it get’s you in the end. Better off than the rest of us? Yeah mmmkay, whatev’.
Peace, ya’ll. I’m out, let’s move on to the next subject.
April 25th, 2007 at 2:57 pm
Steve_C, I admire your persistence in this subject. Most people just walk away angry but you have shown a stronger desire for the truth. It is not that I value primates so low, because they are a creation of God as well. It is simply that we (homo-sapiens) were “created in His likeness and image.” Accordingly, you and I were created with more design and purpose. He commanded us to “have dominion over the animals and subdue the earth.” My interpretation of this may be slightly different than yours but it basically says that we were given freedom, with responsibility. By the way, you have not answered why you are here or even at least what you think.
Fairy tale? The sad thing is that Creation makes a whole lot more sense than the idea of us coming from micro-organisms which evolved over billions of years. This sounds like evolutionists had to be as vague as possible so that no one can disprove them and so they don’t have to explain why there is no sign of evolution currently. Where are those missing links? What are we “evolving” into? Where is the proof? The only way to disprove God is to prove otherwise. Have you ever seen anyone who is a believer of God and creation go over to believing in evolution. This occurs about once in a billion years…oh wait we haven’t been around that long. In contrast, there are many people who have come from a firm belief in no God to seeing that He does exist. It is because they found the truth, “and the truth shall set you free.” You have to choose to believe this for yourself, no one can do it for you. When I speak of humility, I mean that I have chosen to know that God exists and that He greater than you and I.
I can only say that you will see the truth in due time. Hmm, time, now there’s an interesting concept. Where do you believe this came from? I think we can all agree that it started, so by deduction we can conclude that it will end. The funny thing is that I have a Book, known as the Bible, which tells us how we began and how this world will end (notice how I didn’t say us). Do you have a book that can do this? (Mostly rhetorical because I know the answer) The point is that God even created the concept of time to govern our universe. In fact he even split time as we know, B.C. and A.D. God does not work on time, however, because He is infinite. Let’s make a deal, you read the Bible and I will read Darwin’s theory of evolution (my part is done) and see what you conclude. This has not shaken my beliefs at all and I do agree that Darwin was very intelligent. On the track for truth, though, he just got off at the wrong station.
Going back to the whole reason this discussion began, Google truly can’t answer every search. Don’t get me wrong, I use Google everyday and am impressed by what it can do. But when I type in the meaning of life and receive a number (42) based on a science fiction novel (the key word here is fiction), then I have proof that it doesn’t have all the answers. It can’t answer why we are here, why there is right and wrong/good and evil, what we are to become, how the earth orbits around the sun just far enough away to sustain life…the list goes on and on. Still the most interesting question is, “How do you create something from nothing?” The simple answer is God.
I am only here to help you Steve_C and to point you to the truth. My beliefs still hold and are stronger as a result of your interesting responses. It seems I have gotten you quite aroused on this subject. Your search has begun with evolution, but it won’t end there. When you stand face to face with God, don’t say you weren’t given a choice to believe in Him.
“Are you saying that with God, I have all the answers?”
“No, I am telling you that, with Him, you only need one..”
April 25th, 2007 at 3:28 pm
This is amazing! A simple comment by a church that not every search can be satisfied by google and it turns into vehement discussions of evolution vs. creation, Christian vs. Jews, and all kinds of philosophical debate. I perceive that most responders on this site who have resorted to offensive arguments against churches, believers, athiests and philosophies from all sides of the spectrum have left the practical application to this quote far behind.
I’d like to know—have most of you tried out your “pat answers” in the real world and helped drug addicts recover from a living hell? You see, I meet a lot of people who don’t need lofty arguments in theory, they need something that WORKS. Although Google provides lot of answers people’s problems, it can never replace face to face love and concern that comes from one on one relationships.
April 25th, 2007 at 3:42 pm
“Are you saying that with God, I have all the answers?”
“No, I am telling you that, with Him, you only need one..”
let me rephrase that:
“Are you saying that god will fill your mind with all the answers?”
“No, I al telling you, that with him, you don’t need one.”
April 25th, 2007 at 3:46 pm
Sorry for butting in the conversation b/w David and Steve_C.
David,
One can ’smell’ your sarcasm from miles away. it is dressed up as a hollier-than-thou flavour from a high moral ground. If you understand Psychology 101, scarcasm will not win you any converts. On the contrary, it tends to make one bitter and twsiting the Bible even more to ‘FIT’ your indoctrination of Bible. Not a self-search to understanding as it should be.
Now you said to Steve_C: ‘The thing that makes me the most sad is that you still relate yourself to a primate. Do you really value yourself that low?
And yet you David, you feel insulted and “dehumanised” when scientists say that people evolved from lesser life forms, but you have no problem with the Biblical claim that we were created from dirt.
Here are the rest for completedness and posterity.
TOP TEN SIGNS YOU’RE A CHRISTIAN
10- You vigorously deny the existence of thousands of gods claimed by other religions, but feel outraged when someone denies the existence of your god.
9- You feel insulted and “dehumanised” when scientists say that people evolved from lesser life forms, but you have no problem with the Biblical claim that we were created from dirt.
8- You laugh at polytheists, but you have no problem believing in a Trinity god.
7- Your face turns purple when you hear of the “atrocities” attributed to Allah, but you don’t even flinch when hearing about how God/Jehovah slaughtered all the babies of Egypt in “Exodus” and ordered the elimination of entire ethnic groups in “Joshua” — including women, children, and trees!
6- You laugh at Hindu beliefs that deify humans, and Greek claims about gods sleeping with women, but you have no problem believing that the Holy Spirit impregnated Mary, who then gave birth to a man-god who got killed, came back to life and then ascended into the sky.
5- You are willing to spend your life looking for little loop-holes in the scientifically established age of the Earth (4.55 billion years), but you find nothing wrong with believing dates recorded by pre-historic tribesmen sitting in their tents and guessing that the Earth is a couple of generations old.
4- You believe that the entire population of this planet with the exception of those who share your beliefs — though excluding those in all rival sects — will spend Eternity in an infinite Hell of Suffering. And yet you consider your religion the most “tolerant” and “loving”.
3- While modern science, history, geology, biology, and physics have failed to convince you otherwise, some idiot rolling around on the floor speaking in “tongues” may be all the evidence you need to prove Christianity.
2- You define 0.01% as a “high success rate” when it comes to answered prayers. You consider that to be evidence that prayer works. And you think that the remaining 99.99% FAILURE was simply the will of God.
1- You actually know a lot less than many Atheists and Agnostics do about the Bible, Christianity, and church history — but still call yourself a Christian.
Is that enough blindness to make you think, David?
Cheers
April 25th, 2007 at 4:06 pm
” have most of you tried out your “pat answers” in the real world and helped drug addicts recover from a living hell? ”
IN FACT!!! I JUST DID!!!! And as a sad side-joke, they were prescription-drugs, but really bad kind, having horrible withdrawal symptoms, killing headaches and brain shivers. It was hell for her. I was the bliss in her day. She is good now. I am still her bliss ;)
Funny thing - she is hardcore christian, me - just very tolerant reasonable guy.
And thanks to Google, I found out what horrible shit she is taking in. So she stopped. She feels herself now again. And I am the pill that keeps away the troubles that originally made her take the pill in first place.
I know charity is very high on christian top things to do, but we are pointing out, that while they go “let’s do good for community” it is very easy to jump to “let’s kill the balsphemous bastards” from there in an instant.. go figure..
I don’t need god to be my middle man to be empathic. As did not people before christianity WAS INVENTED.
because funny thing, while god always existed and always will, why wasn’t there christianity from beginning? why the split of time and shit?
I’ll tell you why: psychology, tricking the brain: let’s start from the middle of time and name everything before that “dark ages” and well let’s have the libraries burned and plundered in crusades, so the christianity will be only thing left.. why would you need to do that, if it’s so freaking awesome anyway?!
April 25th, 2007 at 4:16 pm
The problem with science I guess then is that there is no story to it. Just read a science book and you’ll see that to most people, it’s just not very entertaining. People want stories especially ones that everyone can understand. It’s just too bad the story of Christianity is mostly rehashed from previous religious stories.
April 25th, 2007 at 4:21 pm
seekeroe, did you know that assumption is the lowest form of knowledge? Why do you assume I fit into these characteristics of a so called “typical” Christian. I am sorry if you have come across a person who has these attributes. You are right, I have no problem with the fact that I was created from dirt, but you are missing one key component from this statement. It was that God breathed the breath of life into Adam. Hence, I have no problem believing I was created out of nothing. I was still fashioned in “His likeness and image.” So how much do you know about the Bible? Maybe you should read it first. “Go get your own dirt” before you start making these feeble claims.
Umm…cheers?…I guess?
April 25th, 2007 at 4:33 pm
“Umm…cheers?…I guess?”
you dirty bastard, I knew you like it!
are you having mind-orgasms too from all the self-admiration that’s going on here? :)
April 25th, 2007 at 4:37 pm
no wait.. of course, wrong again! I am admiring myself, you, in all your humility, are only admiring your maker!
April 25th, 2007 at 4:51 pm
Now now, no need to be name calling. Believing in yourself will only lead to your demise. Wouldn’t you enjoy the fact that you know the truth, wouldn’t you feel free? You too can have this joy is you simply confess and believe that He is Lord. Hallelujah! Again I say, Hallelujah! Praise Him, for He is good!
April 25th, 2007 at 4:54 pm
It cracks me up that people need to see ‘proof’ before they’ll believe that God exists.
This reminds me of the movie Contact, where Matthew McCaughney asks Jodi Foster:
“Do you love your father and mother?”
“Very much.”
“Ok..prove it”
April 25th, 2007 at 5:23 pm
David,
You said: ‘Ihave no problem believing I was created out of nothing. I was still fashioned in “His likeness and image.’
First, you should have said you were created by your Christian God from DIRT. Get it right. Compared to Atheism that we, humans evolved from a lower form. But still probably higher than dirt. ;-)
Secondly, the point about my statement of ‘You feel insulted and “dehumanised” when scientists say that people evolved from lesser life forms, but you have no problem with the Biblical claim that we were created from dirt’ is cited as an observation. Not an opinition. Get this second point right. So we can see you fully understand what is being communicated across the Net.
If you fail to see this, I am afraid, you are absolutely naked when citing the Bible as your cover for being a hypocrite. Can you see that? Logic and reasoning are the proper basis for a debate. Not blind faith.
Cheers
April 25th, 2007 at 5:26 pm
I don’t need “proof”. I need evidence. And there isn’t a shred.
And I used to believe in god. But I realized there was absolutely
no evidence for his existence.
Eric. You accept something soley on faith. That’s all you need. Fine.
But don’t point to me as the foolish one.
April 25th, 2007 at 5:47 pm
“Wouldn’t you enjoy the fact that you know the truth, wouldn’t you feel free? ”
I guess you want my honest answer: your truth feels like a freakin coffin with no way out. A box with a bottm and top. full of crap. and you looking out of there all slimy and smelly telling me: nooo, it’s really fun, come in! you will never want anything else!
There.
This all said, I have no problems with you LIKING to be in this box. But I have a problem with you or some of your brothers hallajuujas grinning into my face and trying to appear like you know something, where all you have is the feeling of knowing something without realizing even, how you were tranced to feel like that and how your ass got locked in the box.
I have actually been in church, in few “blends” of christian, in indian, and all I could see there was how they tranced people into fantasizing of something big bright and beautiful and then anchoring this feeling like a chain to their deity WITHOUT ACTUALLY SAYING ANYTHING ELSE, just throwing out the mental images of the FEELING to get everybody nice and deep into trance fantasizing and creating their own gods in their own heads. that’s all they need - A PRINCIPLE WORKING BECAUSE YOU ARE PROUD OWNER OF HUMAN BRAIN. no gods or no miracles needed.
So for me it’s all about live and let other live. for you it all about “oh fuck this is so great I have to showe it down the throat of every young unprotected child-mind, because maybe if it’s too late they have actually developed their critical thinking and are too smart to buy into this shit!”
So if christians AND OTHER RELIGIOUS FANATICS stop mind-raping children, I’ll stop throwing shit at them.
Isn’t that an easy deal?
April 25th, 2007 at 6:11 pm
seekeroe, even if
“Logic and reasoning are the proper basis for a debate. Not blind faith.”
..by now you already should know, that the TRUTH a believer is forced or tricked or lulled or whateved to accept is, that there is nothing higher than god. that includes logic. so if logic goes agains god, it HAS to be something wrong. what other PROOF would they need?
So even if we try here from the bottom of our hearts to be truthful and helpful and answer all the questions, it does not matter. because as you see, next thing they quote something the actually KNOW god HIMSELF said, so whatefer phuk we are babling about, the second it even gets CLOSE to grab the rug under their feet, they just jump and stay hanging on the WORD OF gOD.
so we can pull all the rugs in the world, it does not matter. because as you heared they ALREADY HAVE the truth, end of story, end of search. box closed. you can knock on it how long you like and tell them all the stories of infinite universe, they already have their infinite box-god, so to hell with the universe.
it’s all trick of the mind. and honestly, I have the deepest respect before the guys who came up with all the self-suficient cyclic definitions and truths and fallback of “if everything else fails, gods word still exists, so you have to be delirious if you SEE something before your eyes casting doubt in your mind. JUST DON’T LOOK!!
box closed.
oh, to be on the topic,
happy googling! :)
April 25th, 2007 at 7:10 pm
So many to respond to, so little time. Let’s start with seekeroe:
Thank you for pointing out the obvious. It is clear by my previous responses that when I say “created”, I mean by the Creator (God). Yes you are right that logic and reasoning are the basis for a proper debate. However, you have not given me any. By the way, an observation is grounds for proof. Once again, “Go get your own dirt” and then come back to me.
Steve_C: I applaud you for at least being civilized in this discussion (unlike “…believe in yourself”) I don’t believe anybody is foolish here, we have all been given a choice to believe what we wish and have made a decision accordingly. I don’t believe you believed in THE God, but rather A god. Once you have experienced the real God, there is no turning back. Don’t worry, I too have being given the choice to believe in evolution, but there too was no shred of solid evidence. Just a bunch of feeble claims.
If you need to believe, believe in yourself: You might want to try proof reading before you post. The freedom I describe is that of knowing that I have purpose, a reason why I am here if you will. I am not sure which church, if any, you are describing. I look forward to going to my church because I get a chance to strengthen my relationship with God and fellowshipping with other believers. Mind-raping is a rather immature way of describing how people come to believe in Christ. Everyone is given a choice, nothing more, nothing less. If you want to talk about children, think about what is being taught as fact in schools. I will give you a hint, it isn’t Creation. Furthermore, you haven’t “seen” any proof of evolution. In fact, the only physical evidence was a hoax (remember the scientists using various skull bones of a human and primate to create the “missing link”?) So you can try pull as many “rugs” out from under me as you like. But you know what the funny thing is? I will at least land on solid ground (God’s Word).
April 25th, 2007 at 8:24 pm
Daid says:
‘Yes you are right that logic and reasoning are the basis for a proper debate. However, you have not given me any’.
and further on,
‘I will at least land on solid ground (God’s Word).’
Faith aside, I don’t think that what you, through your blind faith, regard as solid ground can be reasonably regarded as sound reasoning from an observer viewpoint.
Cheers
April 25th, 2007 at 8:26 pm
David,
Sorry I misspelt your name.
Cheers
April 25th, 2007 at 8:31 pm
I would like to take a few steps back and take a BIG picture approach. Here goes:
- Jesus is, generally speaking, a good philosopher noted of his time. He was a bit naughty, however, for calling himself son of god. (whatever that means, BTW).
- His followers then inflated further his status to real god in order make their own agenda as the ONLY teachings worth listening and obeying to by the masses. (That is the absolute truth for you).
- To an extent, it’s an effective, cunning but not totally moral way to help reduce human conflicts and subsequent sufferings over the two millennia.
- And of course, they also messed it up badly by their followers’ zealotry, and unfortunately, created human conflicts and subsequent sufferings over the same two millennia. So the good and the bad are sort of cancelling out each other. It’s unfortunate. A recent example for you. How about the Christians in the US helped elect G.W. Bush. Guess what this Christian president created over there in Iraq! Consider, just for a few minutes, the amount of money spent on the Iraq war, so far, was instead spent on helping the poor, the sick and the homeless in the third world countries, you can see how many ’souls’ you would have saved and converted into Christians instead. Now don’t give me the usual BS about god’s will. It’s your fellow Christians’ will in the US via their president’s deeds in particular. All was done for BS reasons. Weapon of Mass Destruction is one such reason. Remember. Note that I did not say ALL Christians in the US.
I believe, however, as a human race, we do need a philosophy to help ourselves and people around us to live our lives in some way. It should not strike you in the face then to realise as to why we have had many different philosophies over times in different parts of the world. (Otherwise what is so special about the Jews that your god decided to be born into that race? What about the Chinese and the Indians? Wouldn’t they be more representative due to their sheer numbers. Talking about your god’s Fairness, Omnipotence, Omniscience and Omnipresence! bullocks).
It goes w/o saying then Christians cannot keep preaching the same stuff that was intended for people at a time when social-political-economic conditions were quite different to today’s and future yet to come. Time to rewrite the bible with Jesus being god taken out. One way, I suggest.
So is it reasonable to expect that you should factor in the above changes to help bring about, perhaps, a new and more suitable philosophy if you are really that good in your heart and mind. After all that is what you profess to live by. So show us some examples of what you are preaching.
BS about Jesus as god gets you fewer and fewer converts as time goes by.
Cheers.
April 25th, 2007 at 8:43 pm
David, are you familiar with the term “oxymoron”? look it up on google.
because “I will at least land on solid ground (God’s Word)” Is one. I guess the old term was a methaphore, but in this case I find the oxymoron is more appropriate, when first talking about “proving love” is something very difficult, and then “standing on solid word” is suddenly absolutely natural and everyday stuff. Or maybe you are referring to interesting mental condition, where people actually don’t make any difference between the name of some thing and the actual thing itself. I totally believe whoever is able to pull a god-thing on you can easily put you into state like this also.
And mind-raping young people is exactly the right term. Do you think people living in the same town, some brought up as muslim, some in judaism, some as christians, would even know any reason to hate each-other, if they would not been TRAINED like that from very young age?
And what children are taught in “ordinary” schools is based on observations and theories, not denial and blind faith. They learn patterns and relations of things in the world, that they could observe or witness in one or other way. Indeed, there are still dubious things like history, which is constantly twisted and edited, but in general, they get some idea how the world around them works. remember there were times where religion taught people, that earth is the center of the universe and sun is goind around it? and people were prisoned ( remember this guy? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_Galilei ) for DISCOVERING it was not so? why would you need to punish somebody finding out you are wrong? wouldn’t you be happy about being corrected about something so big and fundamental? how great would that feel, huh? Or maybe if you would be a scam artist, you would like to shut people up when they discover that SOMETHING you tell is a “misinformation” in fear people will get BRAVE enough to start doubting in other things?
We have ALL THE POSSIBILITY to grow up and find out better or correct the mistakes of generations before us, when we discover new things and observe new evidence or construct new experiments.
What I call mind-rape is to tell people: there was always god, now there’s everything that will ever be, eat your cereal or else you’ll burn in freaking hell and before that devil will put some shit “into your path” along the way. And all this “god’s plan” talk!!! I can’t even BEGIN how it’s just a perfect training to accept your position as a corporate drone with no way out. again: god made you, god found you a place, be happy and turn your wheel. message: there’s no way out, do as you are told, or else infinite torture in hellfire.
how is this SOMETHING else than mindrape, you are free to enlighten me.
and don’t talk to me about morals, because bible is full of sick fcuks finding it’s ok to rape women and kill your mother only because she is doubting in god. so even today, people have their own morals to SELECT out of bible what IS moral and what is not, so morals have nothing to do with bible or christianity. it’s just next social mind-hijacking attempt.
I have nothing against grown up people finding their way to god. this would be truly informed choice out of free will. sometimes it’s in despair, sometimes in deep distress, I know how religion among other things totally hijacks the feeling of being loved and accepted - again some very raw and PRIMAL ( I wonder how this word got it’s meaning.. ) need, that brain-owners usually have. So lots of lonely people find comfort in this.. again, whatever makes them happy.
But people doing this to their own children is horrifyingly more common crime than p2p music downloads. So stealing bad, mind-raping nessessity to protect the society from falling apart, yay!
And talking about free choice: For me there STILL exists a possibility, that some fine day god descides to show up behind my door and say hellou, what’s up? yay! I should recognize him, I am, after all, made in his image, as you are telling me.
But for you the possibility, that god does not exist is already unimaginable. Probably you have been trained ( I know a lot of people are, I wonder if it has anything to do with sending them into mindess battles ) to say, that you are ready to DIE for your god! I actually got to the depth of one woman who actually told me, that her FEAR before me telling her, that there might be SOMETHING more powerful than a man ( my whatever energy-thing ) and still NOT god FRIGHTENS her so much, that she is ready to die mostly because of this - she would rather DIE than accept that her belief is empty wordplay.
Honestly, I would also kill myself for being so stupid and mallable. I am sure she will make a proper CHOICE when it’s time.
so after all those wonderful words you KNOW are DIRECTLY spoken by god, delivered by angels, whispered to select few and written down by numerous people, how can you denie the obviousness of this massive brutal crowd-control scheme with undisguised raping and caging of minds with deep-trained fears and total hopeless predetermination ( of course it’s your “free choice of will” to fcuk up and burn in hell ) with “gods unconditional love” thrown in as a bonus track?
of course, bonus track only available for those who accept his unconditional love.
PS. I really try to proofread, but obviously I skip some messages, so I’ll try to do better.
April 25th, 2007 at 9:40 pm
David. If you can’t accept that there’s evidence for evolution, it’s the basis for all modern biology and genetics then we might as well say the sun revolves around the earth.
The fossil record is just one source of evidence for evolution. DNA is another.
These 4 things are unrefutable:
Life appeared on earth more than two billion years ago.
Life forms have changed and diversified over life’s history.
Species are related via common descent from one or a few common ancestors.
Natural selection is a significant factor affecting how species change.
These things are facts, there’s massive amounts of evidence to back this up.
To deny this is to just put your head in the sand.
To believe the Jews of over 3,000 years ago were told how the earth and man were created is just silly. Alot of theists accept it as a parable, religious men trying to give a poetic description or moral story to the beggining of man.
But to acutally think the story is FACT and evolution is false?
The only reason you deny evolution is because it conflicts with your ancient story.
Science is not dogma. It is revised and updated constantly to account for new research and better technology. Most modern and sensible theists can seperate the stories of the bible and knowledge of science. The unsensible ones try to conflate the two.
April 25th, 2007 at 10:44 pm
seekeroe: Well said, I am glad to see you are using your own words for a change. Unfortunately we are in times where it is becoming harder and harder to see the things of God. We are coming to point where man is believing they do not need God because of the superiority we have achieved. Sadly mankind does not realize that the only reason we exist is because of Him.
Taking Jesus out of the Bible is rather…well…stupid. The whole reason we are saved is because Jesus came down to die on the cross for all humanity. His teachings can still be applied to any situation in life. I don’t recommend that anyone tries to “rewrite” the Bible as you will see in Revelation 22:18 (hopefully this will make you actually read a Bible verse).
It saddens me that you would bring such a prominent figure as the President. His first task is to protect our nation, our freedom, at any cost. It seems you don’t even appreciate the fact that you live in such a great country, one in which you have religious freedom. Everyone makes mistake, and unfortunately, his mistakes are under the scrutiny of every American. So let he who is without fault cast the first stone. Yet no matter what happens, George W. Bush is still on his knees praising and praying to God. Are you saying that the money would be spent on better things if someone else was in office? I think not! I choose not to have corrupt beaurecrats undermine American society. It is no wonder that almost every president in history was a strong believer in God. Many who don’t, seem to get impeached.
The best thing I can do now is continue to say that God is the truth and He is the only way. When you are on your death bed, who will you be calling out to? I can only pray that it is God.
Bullocks?…good one.
…believe in yourself: To be honest, I had to read over many of your sentences to understand what you were saying. I would like to see you say your last response out loud to hear your incoherent thoughts. You are right, that would be great if I was proven wrong in my beliefs…still waiting. You have yet to say anything that even remotely sways my thinking.
Once again people are still given a choice to believe in God, end of story. Where do you get your useless information with stories of people being forced to believe in God? The Bible is full of fundamental morals. Please tell me where it says in the Bible that it is “okay” to rape or kill people. I hope this actually gets you off your science fiction novels and video games, and causes you to read something worthwhile. Or do we have to make the deal I made to Steve_C, you read the Bible and I read Darwin’s theory of evolution (already done). Don’t talk about something you have never even read in the slightest manner.
I hope you don’t kill yourself before you finally believe He is God. I do hope that you one day understand that He loves you no matter what.
April 25th, 2007 at 10:47 pm
Josh Stop Reading this.
April 25th, 2007 at 11:21 pm
Steve_C if the fossil record is evidence for evolution, where are the rather important fossils? Say the ones that brings the shortens the “billions of years” gap. Where are the missing links? Keep digging. How is DNA evidence of evolution? As a student in college studying molecular biology, I don’t even see this. None of my professors (no, they do not believe in God) have even attempted to claim this so I don’t think you should even start.
You can’t even prove those “irrefutable” facts. Please give me the “massive amounts of evidence” you claim, because every time you respond I get more circular reasoning, theories, the “mights” and “if’s”, and any other superficial, futile junk. Any “change” you have seen is a result of adaptation. My story is ancient but at least it is newer than yours.
April 25th, 2007 at 11:34 pm
David,
Sorry to tell you but Revelation 22:18 is no more than a threat that churchmen and authority from mediaeval time used to scare the population into submission and to force beliefs upon them. Well, the threat that you referred to is equivalent to corporal punishment that parents used to administer to their naughty children a few years back. It was abandoned after educators realised that it simply did not have the intended and lasting positive results on children in the longer run- when they grow up!
Now one would have thought that you are aware of this sort of primitive behaviour. So whoever inserted the last couple of sentences in the book of Revelation was definitively a primitive man. Certainly not from an omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient and benevolent god. Threat is not a sign of benevolent. That’s simple.
Cheers
April 25th, 2007 at 11:36 pm
David,
BTW,
I donot live in the US. So in a way, I don’t owe him any allegiance.
Cheers
P
April 25th, 2007 at 11:38 pm
David,
BTW,
I donot live in the US. So in a way, I don’t owe George W. Bush any allegiance.
Cheers
P
April 26th, 2007 at 1:00 am
seekeroe: Revelation is the detailed account of how the world will end. I don’t think anyone needs to add or delete from the Bible. It is a full account of the beginning and the end. Everything from evolutionary books either needs to be deleted, because there is no evidence, or added because there is no evidence…hmm a paradox. Like I previously stated, read the Bible, then tell me what you “think” should be added or deleted. Then, may God have mercy on your soul. Since you choose not to read something that you like to make claims about (how many other discussions do you do this in?), I will do you the favor of telling you that everything in the Bible belongs there. Since you do not live America, your comments about Bush do not hold any value. The point still remains, though, you are fortunate to even live in a place with religious freedom, wherever it may be.
Cheers…with a…P?
April 26th, 2007 at 1:14 am
David,
It may be hard for you to believe but i used to train to be a member of clergymen. So rest assured that i have read the Bible more than you keep convincing yourself about how much i know about the Bible.
Now, I have to borrow from someone’s writing in order to demystify the absolute truth of the Bible, a position you automatically take in your reply. It’s a bit long but to demistofy something like the Bible, how it is modified, it’s not that long.
Here goes:
‘The editing and formation of the Bible came from members of the early Christian Church. Since the fathers of the Church possessed the texts and determined what would appear in the Bible, there occurred plenty of opportunities and motive to change, modify, or create texts that might bolster the position of the Church or the members of the Church themselves.
Take, for example, Eusebius who served as an ecclesiastical church historian and bishop. He had great influence in the early Church and he openly advocated the use of fraud and deception in furthering the interests of the Church [Remsberg]. The first mention of Jesus by Josephus came from Eusebius (none of the earlier church fathers mentioned about Josephus’ Jesus). It comes to no surprise why many scholars think that Eusebius interpolated his writings. In his Ecclesiastical History, he writes, “We shall introduce into this history in general only those events which may be useful first to ourselves and afterwards to posterity.” (Vol. 8, chapter 2). In his Praeparatio Evangelica, he includes a chapter titled, “How it may be Lawful and Fitting to use Falsehood as a Medicine, and for the Benefit of those who Want to be Deceived” (book 12, chapter 32). Anybody you know here maybe a target of this?
The Church had such power over people, that to question the Church could result in death. Regardless of what the Church claimed, people had to take it as “truth.” St. Ignatius Loyola of the 16th century even wrote: “We should always be disposed to believe that which appears to us to be white is really black, if the hierarchy of the church so decides.”
The orthodox Church also fought against competing Christian cults. Irenaeus, who determined the inclusion of the four gospels, wrote his infamous book, “Against the Heresies.” According to Romer, “Irenaeus’ great book not only became the yardstick of major heresies and their refutations, the starting-point of later inquisitions, but simply by saying what Christianity was not, it also, in a curious inverted way, became a definition of the orthodox faith.” [Romer] The early Church burned many heretics, along with their sacred texts. Perhaps eyewitness writings got burnt along with them because they did not accord Jesus [the deity status] that Church sought after.
Both you and I will never know for sure. A fair point, don’t you think. Therefore, the absolute truth of the Bible which you believe in is questionable for a start for reasons stated above. Hence my argument that Celsus’ writing (that Jesus is just a naughty guy calling himself god) is, at least, as valid as the bible.
FYI, in attempting to salvage the Bible the respected revisionist and scholar, Bruce Metzger (more respected even than your John McRay) has written extensively on the problems of the New Testament. In his book, “The Text of the New Testament– Its Transmission, Corruption and Restoration, Metzger addresses: Errors arising from faulty eyesight; Errors arising from faulty hearing; Errors of the mind; Errors of judgement; Clearing up historical and geographical difficulties; and Alterations made because of doctrinal considerations. [Metzger]
With such intransigence from the Church and the admitting to lying for its cause, the burning of heretical texts, Bible errors and alterations, how could any honest scholar, (or a person with an enquiring mind) take any book from the New Testament as absolute, much less using extraneous texts that support a Church’s intolerant and biased position, as reliable evidence?
Remember don’t preach but use your logic and reasoning skills.
I suggest you go and ask QUT (even if it is not a well known uni) to check out the references included below and compare them to yours. I will not be surprised if yours will fall down like a pack of cards. Seriously. It is simply because you advanced your belief rather independently debating a historical point as a learned debater. Lots of people can see it. Unfortunately it seems you can’t.
Sources:
Briant, Pierre, “Alexander the Great: Man of Action Man of Spirit,” Harry N. Abrams, 1996
Doherty, Earl, “The Jesus Puzzle,” Canadian Humanist Publications, 1999
Flavius, Josephus (37 or 38-circa 101 C.E.), Antiquities
Gauvin, Marshall J., “Did Jesus Christ Really Live?” (from: http://www.infidels.org )
Gould, Stephen Jay “Dinosaur in a Haystack,” (Chapter 2), Harmony Books, New York, 1995
Graham, Henry Grey, Rev., “Where we got the Bible,” B. Heder Book Company, 1960
Graves, Kersey “The World’s Sixteen Crucified Saviors,” 1875
Helms, Randel McCraw , “Who Wrote the Gospels?”, Millennium Press
Irenaeus of Lyon (140?-202? C.E.), Against the Heresies
Leedom, Tim C. “The Book Your Church Doesn’t Want You To Read,” Kendall/Hunt Publishing Company, 1993
Massey, Gerald, “Gerald Massey’s Lectures: The Historical Jesus and Mythical Christ,” 1900
McKinsey, C. Dennis “The Encyclopedia of Biblical Errancy,” Prometheus Books, 1995
Metzger, Bruce,”The Text of the New Testament– Its Transmission, Corruption, and
Restoration,” Oxford University Press, 1968
Pagels, Elaine, “The Gnostic Gospels,” Vintage Books, New York, 1979
Pagels, Elaine, “Adam, Eve, and the Serpent,” Vintage Books, New York, 1888
Pagels, Elaine, “The Origin of Satan,” Random House, New York, 1995
Price, Robert M.,” Deconstructing Jesus,” Prometheus Books, 2000
Pritchard, John Paul, “A Literary Approach to the New Testament,” Norman, University of Oklahoma Press, 1972
Remsberg, John E., “The Christ,” Prometheus Books
Robertson, J.M. “Pagan Christs,” Barnes & Noble Books, 1966
Romer, John, “Testament : The Bible and History,” Henry Holt and Company, New York, 1988
Schonfield, Hugh Joseph, “A History of Biblical Literature,” New American Library, 1962
Spong, Bishop Shelby, “Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism,” HarperSanFrancisco, 1991
Tacitus (55?-117? C.E.), Annals
Wilson, Dorothy Frances, “The Gospel Sources, some results of modern scholarship,” London, Student Christian Movement press, 1938
The Revell Bible Dictionary,” Wynwood Press, New York, 1990
King James Bible, 1611
U.S. News & World Report, Dec. 10, 1990
Various issues of Bible Review magazine, published by the Biblical Archaeology Society, Washington D.C.
Online sources:
[1] “James (book of Bible),” Microsoft® Encarta® Online Encyclopedia 2001
[2] “John, Epistles of,” Microsoft® Encarta® Online Encyclopedia 2001
[3] “Peter, Epistles of,” Microsoft® Encarta® Online Encyclopedia 2001
Cheers
April 26th, 2007 at 2:07 am
GODLE
April 26th, 2007 at 2:58 am
David,
You don’t listen very well do you.
You wrote:
>Like I previously stated, read the Bible, then tell me what
>you “think” should be added or deleted. Then, may God have
>mercy on your soul. Since you choose not to read something
>that you like to make claims about (how many other discussions
>do you do this in?)’.
You may be surprised to know that I was once trained to be a clergyman. So i have done a fair bit of reading with a self-search to understanding it. Not just an indoctrinated recitation. That would be too easy to do.
Then you wrote:
>’I will do you the favor of telling you that everything in the
> Bible belongs there.’
I would be more happy to see you debate with logic and reasoning rather than getting a favour from you. I mean it.
I state that the absolute truth of the Bible is questionable. And I listed below a few points below as examples. Now I challenge you to answer each individual point raised below. For you keep making an implied claim about your good knowledge of the Bible. But I doubt if you know sufficiently about it. Well prove it.
Here goes:
• There were more than four gospels prior to the Church adoption of the present four which we have today, namely: Luke, Matthew, Mark and John. According to some of the rejected ones, Jesus was NOT considered to be a deity! Note that the Nicea council was convened to decide on the final four which we know today.
• Miraculous conceptions have deep roots in Jewish tradition: the aged Sarah bearing Isaac, the barren wife of Manoah bearing Samson, the barren Hannah bearing Samuel. To name a few.
• Celsus wrote in A.D. 180: “It was Jesus himself who fabricated the story that he had been born of a virgin. In fact, however, his mother was a poor country woman who earned her living by spinning. She had been driven out by her carpenter-husband when she was convicted of adultery with a soldier named Panthera. She then wandered about and secretly gave birth to Jesus. Later, because he was poor, he hired himself out in Egypt where he became adept in magical powers. Puffed up by these, he claimed for himself the title of God.” Second- and third-century Christian writers alleged that some Jews also suggested Jesus’ birth was illicit.
• There was no record of a global census conducted by the Roman emperor at the time as mentioned by Luke. Such a mammoth task, if carried out by Augustus at all, would have left something in the Roman records. None was to be found.
• History records no such Herodian slaughter of children of Jesus age around his birth, though Herod was an undeniably cruel ruler.
• In Mark, when Jesus is casting out devils at the beginning of his ministry, “his friends”— In Greek means “family,” or “household,” which would presumably include his mother—thought he was mentally disturbed and tried to stop him, saying, “He is beside himself.” Now if Mary had received Gabriel’s message, then she should have known her son was not mad, but the Messiah. And even if she were not around in this story in Mark, had Jesus been born in such extraordinary circumstances, it is logical to assume that those closest to him would have known at least something of it— enough, anyway, to see Jesus as someone with a special role or destiny of which the exorcisms were a likely part.
• By reading the four gospels, one cannot help but think that the Jews were mainly responsible for Jesus’ death. So it is not surprising that some Christian sects still believe so. Historically, it was more like Pontius Pilate who sent Jesus to his death on the cross to make an example for the Jews not to start another rebellion, ie. the arrival of Jesus in Jerusalem on Palm Sunday posed a potential threat to Roman power. Why? After a few failed uprisings against Rome by the Jews which were crushed by the Romans, Pontius Pilate was highly unlikely to be a governor who washed his hands over the sentence of a potential rebel leader! Now the real question is: Nobody would have dared criticise the Romans at the time of their supreme power, and so it was twisted to deflect the criticism at the Jews instead, what else was twisted in the gospels?
• “Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death before they see the kingdom of God come with power,” Jesus tells his disciples in Mark. And we all know the years, decades and centuries have gone by and the world endured, however.
• About 600,000 Jews left Egypt. One would expect the Egyptian economy to be adversely affected by the sudden labour withdrawal. Well, there was NO record of such a withdrawal of Jews from Egyptian records. Furthermore, according to the OT, these Jews were wandering in the desert for forty years; Well, archaeologists have had a hard time of finding out evidence to support the facts of such a large group of people living in the desert b/w Egypt and Israel!
Cheers
April 26th, 2007 at 3:38 am
Google does give you the answer:
How many UK pints are there in a firkin?
http://www.google.co.uk/search?num=100&hl=en&safe=off&q=UK+pints+in+a+firkin%3F&btnG=Search&meta=
April 26th, 2007 at 5:55 am
David, your idea of my incoherence may come from the fact, that english is not my first language. So probably I leave out words because of different word-ordering from the language I am using to think and I am sometimes lazy enough to come back and add them later. I would be glad to rephrase myself until I hit something that rings a bell. So you only see and hear my words that try to get close to my thoughts. If you would hear my thoughts, you would find yourself in deep confusion, because they are in a language compared to japanese in it’s complexity and richness. So pardon me that my scaled down translation does not sound perfect for you.
And to be perfectly clear: I am not telling you to turn away from your god or whatever you would like to defend yourself against. As I told you, I am perfectly ok with people capable of reasoning and understanding finding their way to god.
I am telling you to take your humility and use it properly: recognizing, that being “fellow” human and having all the evidence that I have OR you have OR anybody on this planet has ( probably some serious stuff is well put away, but anyway ) by all the definitions, god is not an UFO that would crash into earth sometimes. So there is no “maybe” or “probably”. Until he/it whatever will not show himself, until there is only hints and signs and interpretations and revelations, there is NOTHING that could tell apart from weird coincidence and the “work of god”. except an idea in somebodys head who just can’t explain it in any known rational manner and then jumps to conlusion, that it’s probably god! given enough people having the same ASSUMPTION ( the lowest form of knowledge, right? ) does not make out a fact.
hell! even most of street-magicians do more amazing things compared to most miracles being mere statistical probability. And we all know they are just tricks, sometimes PRETTY EXPENSIVE tricks, but you could just go and pay your money and you would know how it’s done. pay more and they will train you to perform them. Sadly, you could lose your balls if you would tell anyone the secret :P
I have no intention of killing myself over something that can not be proven neighter right or wrong and I would call it utmost disturbing, that there are people who convince others, that they should put their life at risk for something like this. this includes suicide bomber training camps and all other extremes people are pushed in.
All the agnostics and atheists have is pretty good theories, which explain how universe, once set into motion, would come up with planets and human beings all by itself. you are shouting “where is evolution happening right now?!” and chuckling on your own knowing very well, that generations after generations of living beings in stable environment don’t show that much change even in tens and tens of generations. the biggest changes and adaptions were happening with harsh sudden changes in environment and lifestyle.
the same I could shout at you: where is your god NOW? and there are enough people losing their faith because exactly this: something horrible has happened in their life and only way they could explain it is, that there simply is no god who would protect them from such stuff. prove them wrong.
if you want to see a hint of evolution at work, check how fruit fly’s are bred and studied because of their relatively short time between generations and interesting enough genetics.
And while so strong opponent of assumptions, you sure do give out your share of them! I have not read bible from cover to cover, but at different times, I may have read well over half of it in total. It’s dead-boring and again, very well worded to lull the mind into all sorts of states mostly because of very many words and very little content. I mostly fell asleep after every page or two waiting for something with substance. Even with all the concious protections in place, I am still owner of just the same human brain. All I saw was god this god that believe or burn. how feebleminded must one be to fall for something like this? well, I don’t mind being able to tell difference so easily between “people, who have something interesting to say to me” and all the rest. after all, I’ll meet with interesting ones soon enough for all eternity, so there will be something to talk about while boiling and farting blood :)
also I have read enough reserach and books which do comparative analysis of scriptures of defferent religions, how they have similar origins but are obviously “enriched” with different, strangely fittingly opposite twists. If I believe in any creation, then I sure do believe into creators of religions laughing their asses off daily, hearing people wasting their time with shouting at each-other over their religious differences.
So while I really think we are smart enough to go on without regularly braindamaging our children, I also believe, that everybody should have their choice in this.
And here is the mind-raping part: MOST CHILDREN DON’T HAVE A CHOICE! they are never even TOLD they have a choice! They just get whatever religion their parents are “kind” enough to shove into their brain.
so choice is something many believers just dream of.. occasionally.. when they are allowed.
April 26th, 2007 at 5:57 am
Where do insecure women come, ashamed of their wonderful bodies and minds, in constant need of reassurance that they are worth even little something, unable to enjoy the pleasures of orgasm because they got hammered from very young age that body is filthy, sex is sin and they are worth tiny speck of spit compared to god! who was by the way man anyway, so serve them well and hope for some rewards!
Yes, those are more unlucky christian women, I can’t really even begin to imagine, what muslim women are going trough. Are they called human those days already? or still sold for few sheep? I’ll go and check.
April 26th, 2007 at 6:27 am
( ..and I REALLY tried to add those links, but the system here fails to accept those url obviously.. so I put [searchinstructions] instead )
and for once in a lifetime offer specially for you today, wonderfully understandable for you and as a bonus, supposedly totally true reference into biblical moral, try this:
[ http://www.bibile.com, search:kill]
I am not really interested how many times lord said don’t kill and how many times he said kill. It’s just statistics. fact reamins: there’s enough killing going on in the name of god, in the fear of god, trying to please the god, while turning away from god.. every flavour! just choose and pick your sheeps, sons, women or infants, whichever suites your rituals and reasonings best.
and for how raping women is ok given “special circumstances”:
[ http://www.bibile.com, search: vile ]
WOW!! this is spooky!! when I wrote this few hours ago, this search gave as a 3. link reference to “Judges 19:24 Behold, here is my daughter a maiden, and his concubine..”
and now I run this search, THERE IS NO SUCH REFERENCE in whole result set!!! how spooky is that?!!? :D :D :D :D WHY would somebody take it out?! and obviously, there isn’t any “generate random list of 10 random references” thing there, it gives the SAME result with clicking the search again and again..
you! ..you’re good!! haha, this is the funnyest thing happening to me since long time having anything to do with christianity!! :) WOW, is that a quick way to cover their asses.. thanks to google, I can still find the reference..
now that’s what I call “the work of god .. and his devoted followers” and “his mysterious ways” :D:D:D:D keep up the BS!! and covering your ass god-dudes, obviously you need it! :)
April 26th, 2007 at 6:54 am
ok, http://www.biblegateway.com gives answer to the search “vile” and even has it worded in pretty current english:
Judges 19:22-24 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society
22 While they were enjoying themselves, some of the wicked men of the city surrounded the house. Pounding on the door, they shouted to the old man who owned the house, “Bring out the man who came to your house so we can have sex with him.”
23 The owner of the house went outside and said to them, “No, my friends, don’t be so vile. Since this man is my guest, don’t do this disgraceful thing. 24 Look, here is my virgin daughter, and his concubine. I will bring them out to you now, and you can use them and do to them whatever you wish. But to this man, don’t do such a disgraceful thing.”
i notice they have erased the words “*debase them* and do with them whatever you wish” well, it hasn’t gotten much less clear because of that..
probably the argument against it can be, that well it’s not really god described raping virgins there..
..oh well then.. how exactly virgin mary got pregnant? :o knock knock, is it ok if I spill a bit seed in you my darling? or well, can anybody imagine something even close where this could have been something poor mary may have consented? “some mysterious force coming over me, feeling so overwhelmed.. but yea yea sure, nobody has ever used my hole anyway, go on, do your thing! it will be an honor..”
of course I understand, that the version seekeroe#335 described seems a bit more likely..
so again, at best “stroy based on real events” not an accurete depiciton of events.
how much twisting does truth withstand before it becomes fiction?
nothing wrong of cours being hot-hearted fan of fiction, but well.. it does put you on a bit different sized rug..
April 26th, 2007 at 7:53 am
You can not try to convince a man that does not want to believe.
Please If you believe in God, Stop trying to convince skeptics with words. words mean nothing.
These man are smart and full of science, I’m sure at the end they will believe, cause God needs smart man like them, just give them their time, and let HIM be the one who teaches them.
April 26th, 2007 at 7:55 am
To any Christian reading this thread,
- Having a religion, is not a prerequisite to one’s understanding and love of fellow men. Proof: Confucius said to his students that: “Surely it is the maxim of loving-kindness: Do not unto others that you would not have them do unto you.” (circa 551-479 BC). Half a millennium before Jesus taught the same thing: Love your neighbour as yourself!
- Constantine saw in Christians’ philosophical teachings not only an expedient tool but also timely political one at that. It helped undercut his opponents’ moral ground and therefore legitimacy (Galerius, Maxentius, Maximinus Daia). It certainly helped achieve the unification of, and reign over his Roman empire which was falling apart at the time from many internal wars. Proof: Constantine subsequently made Christianity a state religion via Edict of Milan in 313. Moral of this? It is highly unlikely that you would be worshipping Jesus today if Constantine hadn’t needed a simple and unifying cause to fight against his opponents for being the sole master of Roman Empire. That’s simple. More likely The Sun that you would be worshipping now!
- It also has been demonstrated that Christianity has been responsible for killings (Crusades), murders (Medieval, Spanish, Roman and Protestant Inquisitions), exterminating a whole race of people (incas), santioning human slavery, revenging by killing Jews, and so on. Contrasting these to Christianity’s fundamental teaching: Love your neighbour! What an irony.
Now, for you Christians to go on and keep believing that Christianity as the salvation to mankind, you are really deluding only youselves. If this os waht you want, that’s fine. Just don’t get other peole to share your same hypocricy. It’s disgusting from a moral standpoint.
April 26th, 2007 at 8:19 am
seekeroe: This is not about religion, If you have a problem with Christians, that is acceptable, religions in fact are kind of messed up because is humans who practice them and humans are fucked up.
Now as you might be aware, God has been there since before time existed, or whatever your brain lets you imagine, the point is He was there before Confucius too, and what makes you think Confucius didn’t believe in him, and was because of him that he had the same philosophy as Jesus ?
As I said before, everyone sees what they want to see, If you don’t wanna see God, thats totally acceptable since that is the reason he gave you free will… He probably was aware of that before you were even born…
Lets wait till the day you die, and see what happens.
April 26th, 2007 at 9:31 am
“and what makes you think Confucius didn’t believe in him, and was because of him that he had the same philosophy as Jesus?”
It is very simple reason: christianity has layed a brick-wall around itself: THE ONLY NAME OF GOD and stuff like that! So it’s not about whether to believe in existance of god, it’s about having the right name for god, because if you don’t know even that, wtf do you know about god anyway? right?
because no christian will listen to me if I tell, that I KNOW THIS wonderfully confident FEELING you CALL god or basking in gods love, it’s total bonkers for them! how can there be this feeling without the god allmighty? whos name is whatever you call it?!
If it’s NOT EXACTLY the one from the book, it’s probably something devilish trying to sway them from their way. wanna go and free the wicked from their misery? yay!
now where do you take this arrogance in your infinite humility, I don’t even want to know, because obviously it goes even against the teachings of tolerance contained in christianity.
so you telling me( well, to seekeroe acually ), that “maybe confucious knew god too?” I would be pretty confident, that he would not call this god of his the same way as christians do, so it’s probably no-go explanation.
wanna try again?
April 26th, 2007 at 9:34 am
David. To learn about evolution you need to read more than Darwin.
Try some Stephen J. Gould or the Dawkins books the Selfish Gene or the Blind Watchmaker.
To state that DNA has nothing to do with evolution is just idiotic, dumb, absurd… I’ll stop there.
It’s like saying the sun has nothing to do with photo synthesis.
There aren’t gaps in the record. Do we have the fossils of every extinct animal that has ever lived on the planet? Of course not. But the fossils we do have show adaptation and change over time… that’s what evolution is.
The fossil record is evidence of the animal life on this planet changing and becoming more diverse and more specified to the environments they find themselves. It’s irrefutable.
I don’t need to read the bible. I’d rather read a book on Taoism, or some silly sci-fi, or a book by Carl Sagan. No book written my any man will convince me there is a god or gods or even aliens for that matter. It’s like trying to convince me that the Tooth Fairy is real.
April 26th, 2007 at 11:38 am
18 more comments and you’ll have one for every day of the year..
April 26th, 2007 at 11:53 am
let this blow your mind!
http://www.newbanner.com/SecHumSCM/IsGodTaoist.html
April 26th, 2007 at 12:34 pm
Ok
You are right
for you God does not exists.
For me it does.
I ll respect your decision, Hope you can respect mine…
Is, that possible ?
Nice and simple.
End of the story.
April 26th, 2007 at 12:44 pm
Is God Taoist was quite nice. Thanks.
I can respect someones right to believe something. If not the belief itself.
Consider it tolerance.
April 26th, 2007 at 1:06 pm
Here’s some science propaganda for the Evolution deniers in the crowd.
http://www.wellcome.ac.uk/assets/wtd026042.pdf
It should be clear enough for you… it’s written for kids.
April 26th, 2007 at 1:29 pm
Does Satan Exists ?
April 26th, 2007 at 1:53 pm
“Does Satan Exists ?”
before you start arguing about that, let’s just say, that this satan character is from the same book as this god character. From the same story too. So is it really necessary to make separate topic out of it?
April 26th, 2007 at 2:05 pm
There’s no satan. No angels. No heaven. No hell. No rapture. No resurrection. No Adam. No Eve. No Noah’s Ark. No global flood. No immaculate conception. No rising from the dead. No eternal paradise. No eternal damnation. No one will be left behind.
April 26th, 2007 at 2:13 pm
It is neither God nor Google that is the problem, it is all you psycho zealots that are the cause of all mankind’s grief! Don’t depend to heavily on Google or God.
April 26th, 2007 at 2:22 pm
JA Ja ja ja you guys are awesome
April 26th, 2007 at 10:50 pm
@Deviant
How many people here have seen, heard, or proven beyond reasonable doubt that God exists? If he doesn’t exist then why are you so angry about something that doesn’t matter?
How was the bible created? Easy one, it was written by many different writers and compiled into one book.
Who wrote the first bible? See last question for part of this answer. As far as when there were parts of it around right after Jesus rose from the grave.
Why do people believe that Mary was a virgin, when she was A) married to Joseph and
What does this prove? In that area of the world married couples waited a full year after marriage before they were allowed to live together or complete the union. Read history before you try and question it.
B) running away from home? (sounds like they were unwed and she was running to avoid losing the baby).
She didn’t run away from home he went to stay with her friend to help her with her new baby. Once again this wouldn’t be a question if you actually read the history first before popping off.
Why are there so many versions of what happened, how God feels and what he wants from us, but he has never come down to set the record straight in all this time?
He did set it all straight… Read his words in the bible.
Why is the pope able to communicate with god, but elected by men? Shouldn’t god decide who he wants to talk to?
Any man can talk to the father if he accepts the son first…you don’t need the pope. Don’t buy into false rules of the game. The bible is clear about how to talk to God and not once does it ever say let the pope do it.
How many people have been killed as a direct result of religion?
Are we talking about religion or the true God? God does not = religion. He hates religious. Once again that is in the bible where more than a few times Jesus crossed paths and crushed the false ideas of the religious.
How many people have died as a direct result of Atheism? (And no, you can’t blame religious deaths on them being non-believers - they died because of religion, plain and simple! Just look at the crusades!).
The crusades weren’t from God. Men have free will about what and when to fight.
Why do people STILL believe in this stuff, when science has increasingly given UNDENIABLE FACTUAL EVIDENCE that it’s wrong?
Science has yet to answer the most important questions of all… Mankind is at best feeble in his knowledge of the universe. Big bang?…. now exactly where did the material come from for that big bang?…hmmmm If you want answers give your heart and life to Jesus. God is the only source for real knowledge and science has only the creation and not the creator to look to for answers which is why they fail repeatedly.
April 27th, 2007 at 3:03 am
I once spoke to a man from India. He told me India was proof that God existed, as it is such a chaotic jumble of people but yet it still exists every day.
God is a personal experience. The gospel simplified: God = forces of good, Devil = forces of evil. People that are good are godly, people that are evil are the opposite. So if you do good and think of looking after other people you are a godly person (I’d argue even if you don’t believe in God).
If we all completely disregarded those around us and lived for complete selfishness we would descend into chaos.
April 27th, 2007 at 4:22 am
Jeremy:
I may not agree with everything you say exactly, but I do respect your attempt to simplify some of the arguments previously posted.
The way I see it, what good does faith or athiestic belief do, if it only results in arguments between opposing viewpoints who make inaccurate assertions and have little tolerance for respectable debate?
I would hope that if we looked beyond the words posted online, we could find more than ONE person whose life has been radically improved as a result of the philosophy believed…..otherwise, what good is it? I say, get off the computer and try helping other people with your philosophy. If it changes hundreds of lives for the better, you’ve done more than debate an idea…you’ve made it work in real life.
April 27th, 2007 at 6:24 am
This is what some Christians in this thread posted:
>I hope you don’t kill yourself before you finally believe He is God. (#327 - David)
and:
>Lets wait till the day you die, and see what happens. (#344 - Please)
Well, to me, the first one is full of nasty sarcasm. The second one serves to remind me of the eternal damnation threat hanging over my head.
It’s hardly a way to indicate the fundamental teaching of Christian God in practice that Christians profess to follow: Love. Rather it seems to me that these people are full of venom and hatred.
Sorry but you cannot blame anybody else, other Christians of rival sects included, while you behave as real bad loosers over fine points of a debate! You resort to the above.
To tell you the truth, I don’t need your prayer for my soul. It is clearly better as is. Thank you. I mean it. For your behaviour, in repsonse to some factual observations which you don’t like, refuse to acknowledge as true, etc. is resorting to words full of venom and hatred. Not to mention your general style of argument is no dissimilar to that a communist, ie. indoctrinated recitation. Not of a learned debater.
Then you have not one iota of embarrassment to lecture us:
>If we all completely disregarded those around us and lived for complete selfishness we would descend into chaos. (#358 - Jeremy)
That’s fine words indeed. Unfortunately, it’s rather hollow because of your collective action.
Cheers and have a good day, anyway.
April 27th, 2007 at 7:29 am
#357 - seabreezemm wrote:
>Science has yet to answer the most important questions of all… Mankind is at >best feeble in his knowledge of the universe. Big bang?…. now exactly where did >the material come from for that big bang?…hmmmm If you want answers give >your heart and life to Jesus. God is the only source for real knowledge and >science has only the creation and not the creator to look to for answers which is >why they fail repeatedly.
My counterpoint:
You are willing to spend your life looking for little loop-holes in the scientifically established age of the Earth (4.55 billion years), but you find nothing wrong with believing dates recorded by pre-historic tribesmen sitting in their tents and guessing that the Earth is a couple of generations old.
and,
While modern science, history, geology, biology, and physics have failed to convince you otherwise, some idiot rolling around on the floor speaking in “tongues” may be all the evidence you need to prove Christianity.
Cheers.
April 27th, 2007 at 7:50 am
“Religion . . . comprises a system of wishful illusions together with a disavowal of reality, such as we find in an isolated form nowhere else but in amentia, in a state of blissful hallucinatory confusion.” Sigmund Freud
April 27th, 2007 at 8:01 am
It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I cannot take seriously. I also cannot imagine some will or goal outside the human sphere…. Science has been charged with undermining morality, but the charge is unjust. A man’s ethical behaviour should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death. • ALBERT EINSTEIN - scientist, Nobel Prizewinner in physics, originator of the theory of relativity.
Humanists recognize that it is only when people feel free to think for themselves, using reason as their guide, that they are best capable of developing values that succeed in satisfying human needs and serving human interests. • ISAAC ASIMOV - scientist, author, and past president of the American Humanist Association.
Humanism, in all its simplicity, is the only genuine spirituality.• ALBERT SCHWEITZER - accepting the Nobel Peace Prize.
Humanism is a philosophy of joyous service for the greater good of all humanity, of application of new ideas of scientific progress for the benefit of all. • LINUS PAULING - scientist, Humanist of the Year in 1961, Nobel Prize in chemistry in 1954, Nobel Peace Prize in 1962.
For people that are paranoid about a world without Christian God’s teachings. Don’t worry. Here are a few links for a start.
Freedom From Religion Foundation:
http://www.ffrf.org
American Humanist Association:
http://www.americanhumanist.org
Humanism by Joe:
http://www.humanismbyjoe.com
April 27th, 2007 at 9:42 am
2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
Basically Gods calendar is different from ours.
Perhaps Science actually confirms creation. Consider this: If God created the world, what would it look like to Scientists? Perhaps like a big bang? Or even like a long evolutionary process? Scientist can’t agree either but regardless given the above verse it could be either way.
April 27th, 2007 at 9:55 am
Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do.
April 27th, 2007 at 10:14 am
“If we all completely disregarded those around us and lived for complete selfishness we would descend into chaos.”
Jeremy. Atheism has nothing to do with selfishness. Atheists do not disregard those around them. It is much more a trait of the theistic who disregard those who do not share the same deity or belief system. Believing those who do not believe the same way are less important and not deserving respect or the same freedoms.
Not having a favorite deity frees us atheist to look at all people as the same regardless of their religion or lack there of.
Some theists look at the out group and think “oh they’re going to hell unless they join us.”
Atheists aren’t blinded by that delusion.
April 27th, 2007 at 10:24 am
What the hell? God’s calendar is different than ours?
There’s no way of knowing that. You can’t even say he exists…
to say you know how he set’s his watch is ludicrous.
Hey observer. I know exactly what I’m doing. And I’m not the least bit concerned about the “father” being disappointed.
April 27th, 2007 at 11:17 am
Well congratulations Steve C and pat yourself on the back! It must be great to have such a finely tuned bead on life, have all the answers, be so all knowing and have the last word. Hope you enjoy eating your words one day because pride cometh before the fall, friend. You can bank on it (even though I’m certain you won’t).
April 27th, 2007 at 12:57 pm
Blah blah blah.
I don’t have all the answers… for you.
For me. I do.
April 27th, 2007 at 1:18 pm
Finally we come to a concensus…
Don’t forget Yakity Schmackity ;) Take Care Steve!
April 27th, 2007 at 1:18 pm
Finally we agree…
Don’t forget Yakity Schmackity ;) Take Care Steve!
April 27th, 2007 at 1:41 pm
Theoretically when people go to heaven… in what physical state do they percieve themselves? How old are you? Do blind people see? Amputees get limbs back? Are you just consciousness no body?
April 27th, 2007 at 2:34 pm
I have not met anyone who died and went to heaven and back to life, so i couldn’t tell you for sure.
I guess thats the purpose of faith.
All I know is that the laws of God are stronger than laws of physics or mathematics or any law made by man.
In other words, He fulfills everything He promises.
April 27th, 2007 at 2:51 pm
He fulfills the promises of men? Interesting.
April 27th, 2007 at 2:56 pm
Rambo, you don’t know the laws of god, show me some proof. What has god fulfilled, and what promises has he made? i’d like to get a copy of that. Can i search/find that on Google?
April 27th, 2007 at 3:07 pm
Steve: no comment.
Kev1080: Google yes, Search: Bible, and read.
April 27th, 2007 at 3:13 pm
Bible = not real (as in factual, proven information). i like reading just a bunch of stories too. but in the end, they’re just stories, not any facts or any sort of truth.
(bible beaters crack me up, they need to find a new hobby!)
April 27th, 2007 at 3:15 pm
Ok, you win. peace be with you.
April 27th, 2007 at 3:22 pm
Lol!! i don’t win anything, i just feel bad for people that waste their time reading bullshit (the bible or any other form of religious brainwashing material) and buying into the hoax of god or whatever it may be.
April 27th, 2007 at 3:23 pm
i hope one day you snap out of it rambo.
April 27th, 2007 at 3:31 pm
Thanks for your wishes :)
I wish you the same but backwards.
Good bye now.
April 27th, 2007 at 4:05 pm
I doubt he will. Anyone who thinks Rambo rocks has more issues than just religion.
April 27th, 2007 at 4:25 pm
i agree with steve C and Kev
April 27th, 2007 at 4:40 pm
Misery loves company..
April 27th, 2007 at 5:09 pm
Considering this simple statement of Christian faith:
>God is omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient and benevolent - the Almighty.
April 27th, 2007 at 5:18 pm
Prove it seekeroe, just not gonna buy the “christian faith” comment….sounds excellent though, i will give you that, but come on; they use words/phrases like that to make it all sound so good, innocent, and sweet, when it’s all a crock of shit. snap out of it with rambo
April 27th, 2007 at 5:21 pm
Now
IF (a big one) God knew that humans will kill other humans, will sin against one another, will kill in the name and glory of God himself (Crusades, Inquisitions, etc.), will do other terrible things over the centuries and millennia; and then had to send his son down to earth to be killed in an crucifying death in order take the sins away from humans and save them from his father’s vindictiveness in eternal damnation; and, then have to come in glory to reassert his authority as God to mankind again, hmm, why bother God?
One question to Christians:
Given the attributes given to him as stated in the Bible, what sort of egotistical, paranoid, control freak, disregarding-human-misery and power hungry God is that? (Where is LOVE in all of this?)
Or is it the biggest con ever invented in the history of mankind in order to easily control the mind of the masses by authority starting with Constantine nearly two millennia ago!
Wake up my fellowmen/women.
Cheers
April 27th, 2007 at 5:26 pm
kev1080,
Sorry. My post got ‘broken’ in two parts.
Cheers
April 27th, 2007 at 5:32 pm
np, just makin sure you’re on it, lol
April 27th, 2007 at 5:33 pm
I’m a little confused. Is that what you believe, Seekeroe?
April 27th, 2007 at 5:33 pm
no prob, just makin sure you’re on it, lol, wake the fuck up is right!
April 27th, 2007 at 5:54 pm
>I’m a little confused
April 27th, 2007 at 6:01 pm
My webrowser starts playing trick on me. ;-)
In response to SeeThuItAll:
Yep. That was what I was taught since young and was also my belief until I totall lost it. Christianity, to me, is no more than a philosophy dressed up as a religion in order to make it the absolute teaching with lot of help from Constantine.
Cheers
April 27th, 2007 at 9:20 pm
QUOTE:
# Cyber Dog Says:
April 23rd, 2007 at 8:51 am
Maybe not, but at least Google returns your queries.
——————————————-
Praying to god is like outputting to /dev/null and reading in from /dev/random.
Your prayers are wasted, and all you get back is random events in your life resulting from random thermal vibrations.
April 28th, 2007 at 8:55 am
http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=atheists&word2=god
Let down by your own idol.
April 28th, 2007 at 11:11 am
Let me make some observations about believers and the ways they delude themselves:
* They are ABSOLUTELY SURE, that they HAVE some knowledge or connection about god deep in they hearts ( for the rest of us, this is called FEELING )
* Based to that, they are undobtedly SURE, that whohever supposedly do not have it, CAN NOT UNDERSTAND THEM UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE. and this is the reason why the “logic does not work”, not that the arguments are rubbish.
* From there comes also the arrogance to say ” forgive them father, they don’t know what they are doing/saying” . Or probably, when they repeat this sentence enough times having big self-satisfied grin all over face, they start to believe it is true, because it’s much easier to believe that, than to have sensible argument about something they are unable to put in words themselves.
* They get actually ANGRY at you, if you TRY to put something into words or images, they think is holy or UNQUESTIONABLE. While real reason is, that to question those things would just break the CLOSED circular reasoning that they need to shut down their reason. and there are TRIGGERS in place which would keep them from escaping this circle ( to extent, that they may experience physical pain and feeling of dieing )
* They claim, that reason can not even BEGIN to explain things about god. But while god being part in their everyday lives, they still use reason in their everiday lives. So why they need something ultimately and completely unreasonable and unexplainable in their lives? They don’t, but the inventors of religions do: IT IS THE VERY LOOPHOLE IN REASONING TO PUT ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING THEY SEE FIT INTO THEIR BRAINS WITHOUT ANY CRITICISM. otherwise, it JUST WOULD NOT WORK.
* Group-mentality: every negative emotion, like shame, guilt, negative public opinion, authority of their own mother and father are used to create this initial hole in their reasoning.
* from there: in more extreme cases part of their own brain actually splits and starts to “play god” for them and “guard over their lives”.
* then, have you noticed, that their god is CONVINIENTLY against everything THEY find objectionable and must WANT people do EVERYTHING they want people do? the same works for god BEING with people they want ( others from same religion ) and god not being, in any form, shape or way, with somebody not HAVING THE SAME NAME for god as they do.
* Based on all this they are absolutely convinced, that THEIR HEARTS ARE OPEN to the god and OTHERS are closed-minded. In reality it’s weirdly true: their minds have this wide open non-questionable truth HOLE in them, while others have their reasoning-faculties in-tact. This really sounds like amazing loss to me. Wat a poor idiot, trying to make sense of the world, where it’s much more orgastically lovingly wonderful to let this truth just be put into your brain by somebody mystically all-mighty.
* They don’t realize, that all they have done is letting their deepest most loving and caring feeling they can have being hijacked and anchored to some deity-figure. The very same love and care they COULD direct towards their life-partner or lover. But I have actually have heared them say: I will love you and adore you, but jesus will ALWAYS be nr.1 in my life. WTF do I need some dead guy with me in my house or in my bed? that kind of .. stinks.
…
I could go on for few days.. including that they still think, that humans are the crown of the UNIVERSE ( that’s right: now that they are aware of universe, its not even possible that there is someone more intelligent, smart or advanced out there, because it’s not written in the BOOK. )
probably you could find all those properties together in one person in more extreme cases. mostly there are some half-mixes and blends of people, where you could have interesting discussions on some topics and then meet some painfully furious reactions on others.
So hear me: I UNDERSTAND ALL THIS.
whenever you hear from any agnostic: THEY KNOW THIS. if you want to TALK to them, then do. if you want to demonstrate your mental hole, don’t bother. it is insult to wonderful thing called human mind.
If you want to put human mind against human spirit or soul, then you are trying to oppose part of your self to other part of YOURSELF!! how stupid is that? why do you think that some part of YOURSELF is BETTER than other part of yourself? You ARE yourself only because ALL OF YOUR PARTS. you can not take one away and still be YOURSELF.
so don’t be ashamed of yourself. nobody will hate you for this. let people close to you love you not some dead guys. be human, be smart. you can be spiritual and wonderful person without the arrogance, braindamage and hate you get with the reasoning-hole of religion.
April 28th, 2007 at 1:29 pm
Wow people. It’s just a joke.
April 28th, 2007 at 5:12 pm
really? Have you see Jesus Camp?
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0486358/
looks like pretty sad joke to me.
April 28th, 2007 at 5:23 pm
If You need to believe, believe in yourself.
Very insightful.
I’d like to add something about Group Mentality. A subject in its own right. If you haven’t, get a DVD copy of ‘Thirteen Days’. It’s about the Cuban missile crisis. Without sound reasoning and leadership of John F. Kennedy, and left to the hawkish military brass at the Pentagon, I doubt very much if I, you or anybody else would be writing to this forum right now. The nuclear exchange beween the USA and the old Soviet Union would have had produced a terrible consequence to contemplate. By comparison, the two atomic bombs dropped at Hiroshima and Nagasaki, (partly) to revenge for the Japanese’s stealth attack on Pearl Habour, would be equivalent to clearing the land.
Of course, Group Mentality led Christians to their many Crusades in the Middle East, killing hundreds of thousands of people - mainly because they were not Christians and for the glory of the Christian God!
Fast forward to present days. Did George W. Bush’s Freudian slip of speaking the word ‘Crusade’ mean what he utterly meant when referring to his administration’s decision to go to war in Iraq. Oh dear. Human stupidity sees no bound.
One really hopes however that we, collectively as a human race, open our eyes wide open and learn - Starting with questioning our fundamental assumptions and beliefs.
We have Humanism to guide our lives.
Cheers
April 30th, 2007 at 12:34 pm
seekeroe: Stop getting off topic, if you have time, watch this:
http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=startling+proofs+does+God+really+
This video, however, isn’t for children as Steve_C has so kindly given us a link to. It’s sad when the only current proof of evolution that they can tell children is that we are getting taller. “Watch out kids! We might one day become giants!” Try measuring all of us in 50 years and see how tall we have become. Thanks Steve_C for your input, but we need evidence of evolution, not your adolescence.
April 30th, 2007 at 2:33 pm
Well I am the guy who puts up the sign and I believe in what it has to say!
April 30th, 2007 at 3:35 pm
This is what some Christians in this thread posted:
>I hope you don’t kill yourself before you finally believe He is God. (#327 - David)
and:
>Lets wait till the day you die, and see what happens. (#344 - Please)
Well, to me, the first one is full of nasty sarcasm. The second one serves to remind me of the eternal damnation threat that primitive people of the Church and authority used to control people as they would do to sheep. Ever see a sheep questioning the shepherd?
It’s a bully’s a way to force Christian belief down people’s throats. Much less a sincere way to show the fundamental teaching of Christian God in practice: Love. Rather it seems to me that these people are full of venom, hatred and threat.
Your behaviour, in repsonse to some factual observations which you don’t like and refuse to acknowledge as true, is resorting to a bully’s vocabulary of venom and hatred. Not to mention your general style of argument is no dissimilar to that a communist, ie. indoctrinated recitation. Gosh, I am afraid to see you with a gun in your hand and you loose a debating point of an otherwise enlightened topic about our collective humanity on earth.
You need to ask yourself this in your own time:
“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?” –Epicurus.
Cheers.
April 30th, 2007 at 10:44 pm
seekeroe: It is rather sad when you think repeating yourself gets the point across. What’s even worse is when you take people out of context by giving a small excerpt from my their entire response. You remind me of a poor journalist, just taking what you want to hear and using it to help your argument. For those of you just joining us, let me clarify these two statement. It seems for some people (seekeroe in particular) that the passage of time, which leads to death, may be the only way to finally prove to people that God is real. I for one hope that any of you, especially seekeroe, find God before it is too late. I am not at all a person filled with “venom” or “hatred”. It is quite amusing to think that I am bullying you seekeroe. Unfortunately, you cannot go crying to your parents for this one, this has to be a decision you make on your own…and I hope you choose Life. Furthermore, you shouldn’t care whether I have a gun in my hand or not since evolution cannot even begin to explain ethics and morality. I think the real question is “God is willing (and able) to prevent evil, are you?…Why?”
Now it’s time to interpret what some people are saying:
Steve_C: “David is a hypocrite. He makes challenging statements to evolution and the big bang that I know he didn’t come up with, they are the same arguments Christians have made for decades…”
Interpretation: “No fair! You can’t bring up arguments that I can’t answer/prove!”
Correction Steve_C, Christians have made these arguments for CENTURIES. This is because we have still yet to see any kind of proof of evolution.
seekeroe: “It may be hard for you to believe but i used to train to be a member of clergymen…”
Interpretation: “Look out everyone, I think I know something about the Bible and God.”
seekeroe, just because you carried out religious duties doesn’t mean you are a scholar of religion and theology. I am sorry you have failed to become a member of the clergy as you have failed to prove evolution and/or disprove God. Besides, I could care less about your past. I still think you need to read the Bible FULLY before you start taking scriptures out of context. More importantly, don’t even begin to think you can know how God thinks or operates because He is beyond all of us.
Obviously you haven’t watched the video that I gave a link to in the previous response. I know you don’t want to be proven wrong but I still recommend you do so we can stop reading your feeble claims. Go ahead, don’t be scared…
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1760096128712631511&q=startling+proofs+does+God+really+exist&hl=en
May 1st, 2007 at 7:47 am
David says:
“evolution cannot even begin to explain ethics and morality.”
You mean “you are not ready to even look at the possibilities, how evolutions can explain those things” ?!?! :D:D
Because there is massively logical explanation to the possibility, how evolution ( in the form of natural selection ) favours genes with tendency to cause morally sound behaviour and realtions among representatives of a colony. how it raises their potential of survival and inheriting them on to next children.
how you not killing your own relatives means there are more individuals protecting you ( or being eaten instead of you ) and so on. Only thing you are trying to pull over your eyes is the fact, that you can’t SIMULATE IN YOUR HEAD what is million years. If you are ready to have your lack of skill stopping you and make you throw this idea out of your head completely, then it’s just not suitable field of thought for you. Let it be. It’s the same as for me to tell, it’s not possible to play some compositions on the piano, because well, I CAN’T move my fingers so fast!! And if anybody else does it.. well.. wtf do I care, it’s impossible for me, it HAS to be impossible for everybody else too!!
grow up and keep away from science, you understand even less about it than about god.
May 1st, 2007 at 8:02 am
And David, about Proofs to creationism:
To show that SOME INTELLIGENCE designed some parts of living beings does not prove in any way that god did it :)
There are tons and tons of very likely explanations ( which we can’t say for sure, only because nobody we know really REMEMBERS ) before we have to come to total escape clause of reasoning, that “somebody we can never imagine or understand did it!” :D:D:D
how lame do you have to be to insult yourself like that?
I’m not talking about admitting that you can’t understand something, I’m talking about NEVER EVEN TRYING.
May 1st, 2007 at 8:50 am
Ok, I watched the video David gave,
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1760096128712631511
And basically on every step their logic is:
only fool can not see it, of course it was god, even bible says it!
and what from there you call proof? that we are fools or that the bible says it?
because comparing watch and universe is old joke, ask Richard. comparing bomb in the city creating chaos and looking at it few minutes after it happened and big bang creating CHAOS and looking at it after few billion of years is a BIT different SCALE, don’t you agree?
This is the most common way to fool yourself as a human beings: taking OUR COMMON SENSE and applying it to processes it has nothing to do with.
Or you want to talk about common sense of planet forming?
May 1st, 2007 at 9:13 am
David,
You’re unbelievable. You can’t help but having lots of sarcasm can you. You know what. It’s a sign of below-average education that you are unable to keep up with fine debating points in this forum. So when you can’t argue a fine point you offer sarcasm to pretend that you’re above the argument. Well, if it’s the case, why bother arguing.
See the logic.
Cheers
May 1st, 2007 at 11:07 am
Hey David!
No matter how many respondants gang up on you with the same tired hand picked “facts”, humanistic psychologies and personal insults that drone on and bore the life out of this subject, you hold your own very well. It’s okay to be just as passionate about what you believe as them. Keep standing up, brother!
May 1st, 2007 at 1:23 pm
Again, there is nothing wrong about being a fan of god or passionate about jesus or whatever.
The reason we are having this conversation is, that believers think that agnostics and atheists need to be “saved” from something which is just another variant of “what we can not know..”. Except religion fanatics end this sentence “..never” and agnostics and atheists “..yet”.
So telling in this situation that one is “wrong” or “lost” or whatever you want to believe is simply upsetting. Not because there’s something upsetting about being wrong, but because the very issue of “being right or wrong” about something “unknowable” is insulting waste of perfectly good brain matter.
The feeling you name the knowledge or connection with god is a neurochemical thing. It can be triggered in many different ways. I don’t come to you to tell, that it is IMPOSSIBLE that god himself triggers it! All I say is that you could not make the difference, if it’s god or something else. That’s why you call it “belief in god”, not the “knowledge about god”.
My point is not to make me more right. My point is, that neighter of us can not KNOW by definition. So having “doctor” in your title, grinning mysteriously, deliriously or speaking with rhythmic hypnotic voice does not give you any more credibility in front of anyone who can look past those superficial things. People with analytical skills usually do, before you short-circuit them.
May 1st, 2007 at 3:34 pm
Any independently thoughtful Christian,
“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”
See if you can logically answer the question above rather hinding behind your blind faith. It may turn the light on in your head.
Cheers
May 1st, 2007 at 3:42 pm
You are right seekeroe, why bother arguing? Maybe I should just give up on your helpless soul…I think not. I continue to persist because I want to see you make the right decision. One thing you are missing is that you have not yet experienced God like the billions on earth that have. “Seek and you shall find.” You still choose to reject Him and all He has to offer.
A “below-average” education is a relative term. I am sorry if someone “not as intelligent as you” is completely frustrating you in this argument. (more sarcasm) Not to mention keeping up with the “fine debating points” you keep giving. It is funny how they are holding up so well in regards to proving evolution. My mistake, they haven’t. My sarcasm is merely to point out the absurdity of your “fine debating points” and I will continue to do so as long as necessary. Plus, it makes the reading much more interesting to those just passing by this forum and reading a few responses. I am not in any way above the argument, God is and He has the final say. I am just here to point the way for you, but you still have to make the decision to choose God. I still urge you to watch the video…
If you need to believe,: It is nice to see that you are coming to the realization that there is a Designer:
“To show that SOME INTELLIGENCE designed some parts of living beings does not prove in any way that god did it.”
Then who did? Oh, guess you don’t have that answer. I do, His name is God. The fact of the matter is that there is an intelligent creator who designed this entire universe. There is no way we can even begin to understand God. Don’t think that man can explain everything because that will lead to your demise. This is part of the selfish nature that you think you are your own god.
To get the full scope of things, you need to watch more of the video than just the first 3 minutes. The sad thing is that comparing the watch and universe is a simple analogy that continues to frustrate the most determined minds. It may be an old “joke”, but it continues to stand the test of time (pun intended). Now, by responding merely to this watch analogy shows me 1 of 3 things: 1) You don’t have the attention span to watch an hour long video. This, however, is as likely as a simple cell forming out of chance (don’t know? watch the video). 2) You couldn’t stand to be proven wrong so you simply stopped a few minutes in. 3) There were so many things disproving evolution that the only one you could try to argue is the one about the watch and the universe.
So which one is it? By the way, how do you explain the forming of planets? You should know, after all it is “common sense.”
Well this has been another exciting discussion. It seems we are left with two choices. You can easily choose to believe God and His creation or you can wait millions/billions of years to see if evolution is true…but you don’t have that long do you? As for me and the hundreds of thousands of other people getting saved and turning to God each day, we will continue to see that there is more to life than just living and that man isn’t the answer to everything. In the words of seekeroe, I believe I “see the logic.
Glory be to God in the Highest forever and ever! Amen!
May 1st, 2007 at 6:22 pm
dear David,
I don’t live in america, so my attention span is ok.
I indeed wathced the whole video and even saved it into my “educational/religion_nuts” folder. So that I could show it to my friends when we have whaco-film nights.
I didn’t bother to comment on everything in film by the same reason you don’t respond to every crap: it’s hopelessly boring.
even if, for a moment, we would theoretizice, that god did SOMETHING, I would ask you “Who made god”, and you would say “he always was and always will be” and I would say “where the fukk did you take this?” you would say “bible says so” and we would be back in the beginning, because this is called “circular reasoning” for a reason.
and I did comment on the rest of the video, you didn’t even read my comment? the part with having doctor in your name and speaking with really serious face and serious voice? this is all they had to convince people. rest of it is standard “god did it because god said it” stuff. boring.
I guess it was you who remeinded someone, that you can’t prove an argument just by repeating it long enough? well, you are trying the exact same thing yourself. again, boring.
the rest of the video was about how bible is historically accurate - so writing an historically accurate BOOK really proves there is a god. thank you very much, finally you got me. you’ll get a special place now in heaven able to suck his toes at every christmas, while he symbolically kills his son again and again.
May 1st, 2007 at 8:19 pm
Ahh, I didn’t mean to hurt your feelings. Let’s not use vulgar language, especially if you can’t spell it right. It’s nice that you are finally calling your “proof” “crap” and that your responses are “boring”. (Yawn) Come back to me when man can explain everything. It is funny how you still try to think you can explain God, this I can’t even explain, but it is amusing. You really think you can wrap the Almighty God around your tiny little head? Didn’t think so. There are so many things you are not taking away from the video. You are right, the Bible is historically accurate. Thank you for the obvious. You are forgetting all the many prophecies that came to past and predictions about the future though. Every single one of them have come to past and we are still seeing Revelation unfold right before eyes. So which one of your books can do that? Oh, right…none of them. The Bible is a divinely written Book, something that you may never understand.
Now off the topic of the Bible which you seem to like to cling to for your arguments (this hasn’t got you anywhere just in case you haven’t noticed). There are so many OTHER things besides the Bible that point to the Creator, so I now implore to try to and even begin retort to these…or was that too much for you? I think you should listen to what those people on the video say. These are people that seekeroe would consider to have an “above-average education” (thanks for that one). Where’s your degree? No, no, the one you earn through academics and years of research. Don’t have one? I can see that by your writing. Stick to school my friend as I continue to do. Someday I will have a degree in microbiology and understand more about the perfect design of God.
By the way, please show this video to as many people as you can, especially your friends. Hopefully they will see the light. Join us next time folks for another one of “If you need to believe…” amusing responses. Come on millions of others, let’s go praise God! Hallelujah!
May 2nd, 2007 at 5:49 am
“It is funny how you still try to think you can explain God, this I can’t even explain, but it is amusing.”
It is funny because you think of this totally unexplainable and mystical thing as you “friend”, so you FEEL like you are “on his side” and well, it always feels good to “protect” something, that is under attack from rambling idiots :)
I don’t mind that. The boring part is to hear the same things over and over again. And we will not come back to anything, we will just go on.
It’s actually quite amusing to see something like “come back when you can prove something, suckers”, it kind of creates the subtle feelin of “haha, we have it all down on paper already!” While all you can repeat is “god said he is, so he must be”
All this other “mystery” about how you have few PROOFS that earth is 6000 years old..? So all the other fossils, layers of rocks, carbon dating, everything that contradicts this amazing discovery.. well.. it’s just the work of those misguided godless guys? Or is it just next of those “not yet figured out” things that you can shout until somebody is finally putting the puzzle together?
And having predictions in a book does not indicate anything about god. there are enough PEOPLE having visions about future about shorter and longer timespans. How do you explain that? that god visits them from time to time and whispers it into their minds? Is it just because you don’t even want to know anything about the fenomen that “time” is, or is it because it’s just easier to wrap you brain around the infinitely mysterious stick of god and leave nothing for anything other?
And As I said already: you having more correct syntax proves instantly, that you are right, god exists and I am rabling looney :) I would gladly express myself correctly to the last dot in language “closest to my heart”, but then you would not understand me at all.. but having god in your pocket, maybe he will make you understand, want to try? Because you see, I do my best to be understandable for you, and as I see, I’m doing mostly ok, because you still find enough sense from my words to be able to respond.
read what else people have to say about predictions:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nostradamus
basically, you could not say what or when will happen until it happens, then you twist the prediction little bit, interperet the event little bit, until you arrive in the middle, where those two seem like talking about the same thing.
This is again just another example of wonderful ability of BRAIN finding patterns in chaos and associating things that have nothing substantial in common. This does not make you right or prove anything, it just shows your passion or IQ, that you can compare and find similarities in patterns. And iterate and find something in between them to make the connections. Exactly what “not enligthened” people do. Just that they don’t have this universal puzzle-piece that fits into every hole that you WANT. guess what it’s called? So having science on board: what is the likelyhood of such universal puzzle-piece existing? And I’m still not questioning the existence of god, but just ridiculing your use of the concept, how it explains anything and everything your reasoning fails to understand.
For example, you ignore the simple possibility of existance of somebody much smarter and much more advanced and with different KIND of capacity of the mind. You take this HUGE leap from us to everything and miss all the little steps in between, where the nature you know until know is FULL of middle steps between nothing and US.
So until now you have proven that you have will, passion and iq. Obviously I have something similar too, even if they don’t look so shiny for you without the “light of god” . Anyways.
When are you getting to point out god for me? Until now it’s just lots of stuff that seems a bit mysterious when you stop digging at some point and just stand there and wonder. Feels a bit like street magicians leave you feeling, but then we all know, that they are not reincarnations of jesuses, but just very skillful and passionate people. Only thing we could learn from them is some twists about how to fool the eye or SUSPEND your belief of reality. still not closer to wonderful concept of god.
May 2nd, 2007 at 6:05 am
Just to make sure everybody understands:
I don’t think many of the things we are arguing about even CAN be explained to the complete satisfaction of everybody. There is always possible to ask “but what if..?!”. So basically we are wasting our time here and waiting until somebody comes up with the plans for a time-machine, looks back and actually finds out what happened. Or well.. maybe that we EVOLVE to something, that has awareness of time”flow” as it is, not just moments of it.
By “we” I don’t mean me and you, I mean somebody resembling us in far future.
May 2nd, 2007 at 6:42 am
yes, I missed the point about predictions being the ability of people, who actually already HAVE this wider sense of time-flux. And religious people mostly highjacking those visions telling “this is from god”, while it’s just “little bit buggy” or whatever you want to call this deviation of “perfectly normal” people getting leaks of time or actuallt sensing it.
I have actually talked to such people and all they have given me is renewed curiosity about the structure of reality and my ability of sensing it. AND they have listened to me admitting, that the things I have to GUESS about this “mystery” do seem even pretty interesting for THEM, in sense they don’t tell “it totally contradicts with my experience”, but they actually take it and try to play around with it.
So go and tell to them not to listen to this crazy person and pray to god so he could make you normal and take those pills so you could be disconnected from those dangerous visions and not have this “basphemous” sense of being connected to something bigger, because we have book which says what it is already!
May 2nd, 2007 at 9:06 am
To David,
Here are a few examples to remind you.
- The crusades killed hundreds of thousands of people for what really was a bloody place called Jerusalem (yet at the same time Christians were professing their god to be omnipresent!)
- The Inquisitions (Medieval, Spanish, Roman and Protestant: All in the name of Jesus, a naughty guy who called himself son of god!) by the Churches killed at least hundreds of thousands of innocent people. Wrecked the lives of hundreds of thousands more.
- Indirectly responsible the deaths of thousands of slaves and many thousands more for their sufferings via the Church’s sanctioning of trading of human slavery as well as owning slaves under its own name. It even cited the Bible as authority for inflicting such sufferings on so many humans. And yet they are preaching that their god’s teachings are about love!
- Exterminated other races in the name of spreading their god’s teachings, eg. The Incas were exterminated for the spread of Christianity, led by Spain of course.
- Indirectly contributes to the sufferings of more HIV-affected people in the third world (Catholic teachings).
- Indirectly responsible for poor and mal-nutrition of many people and children in the third world.
- Killed one another for the glorification of the same god (Puritans, Irish Catholics and Bristish Protestants. To name a few examples).
- Blamed the Jews for killing Jesus (as if Pontius Pilate were a just Governor) and took revenge by killing millions. (Hitler’s Mein Kampf: “I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord..”
- Paedophilia by clergymen. In the dock are: Catholic Church, Anglican Church, Baptist Church (to name a few). Followed by the Church’s top hierarchy attempt to sweep this issue under the carpet. Contrasted this to Jesus’ teachings ‘If anyone causes a little child to loose faith in me…..he should be drowned in the deep sea.’
And so on.
So David, until you acknowledge the above crimes and bad deeds committed in the name of Christianity and give us your reasons as to why you still think Christianity is the salvation to mankind, I consider you no more than than a pet reciting all the Bible crap but understands nothing about humanity.
Cheers
May 3rd, 2007 at 2:55 pm
People were “moral” before christianity ever existed. Before even monotheism existed.
David, prove that the bible was “divinely” written.
At least I have fossils that are evidence for evolution and the family tree of life.
You have the word of people claiming to hear god’s voice in their head.
May 3rd, 2007 at 4:23 pm
Yes Steve_C, It’s historically clear how “moral” mankind was before Christianity:
-Aztecs, Mesopotamians, Asians, Syrians, Samarians, Celts, Egyptians and even Danish Farmers conducting mass human sacrifices and cannibalism (ritual murder) of their own people including children. Many specifically sacrified to appease their “gods”.
Oh yeah, and not to forget, Romans molesting young boys among other detestable sexual perversions, Nero, Caligula etc.
Is it no wonder these empires eventually toppled?
May 3rd, 2007 at 5:02 pm
If you are so good observer, then you have probably noticed, that “the best” of us who consider themselves higher from every morality are doing pretty freaky stuff until this day.
There are documented cases of american “government-friendly” pimps organizing young boys as entertainmelt for men in power today.
I would not be amazed if the filthy-rich have already organized their own provate clone-islands, where they get people pooling like their favorite stars trained and programmed to be their favorite entertainment.
With all the technology and knowledge it’s just so fucking easy, if money is absolutely NO issue. Because there are enough little people who are ready to do virtually ANYTHING for the right number in the bank account.
So it’s pretty pointless to tell about the morality of civilization as a whole, because there are always bastards who piss on every morality just because they can. Just because doing it is the only fun left they have not tried out yet.
I truly believe there are people who stay true to their humanity no matter what, but there are people who definitely snap after undestanding, what they can actually have other people doing just by adding and substracting numbers..
..and you know they have done many things you wish you don’t know about.. and even more things you will probably never have any idea of, until it happens to you. and NONE of it has ANYTHING to do with any god or morality, it’s all about arrogance, fear and stupidity. Exactly the qualities expected from every christian.
Except they have just taken over the role of priest and god and use the fear and stupidity installed into people to manipulate them in ways no religion or god ever intended. Call it the genius of human mind! Even while you would WISH you could call it the devil.
May 3rd, 2007 at 5:14 pm
pooling=looking,
fingers do weird things sometimes when left alone typing while other thougths are running through the head..
May 3rd, 2007 at 5:14 pm
Just an observer,
Equally:
The Carpocratians, an early Christian sect, considered pederasty to be a virtue and Clement of Alexandria (c. 150 CE - c. 215 CE) complained about their versions of Mark which told of Jesus’s homosexual exploits with young boys!
May 3rd, 2007 at 5:20 pm
To Just an observer,
Equally:
The Carpocratians, an early Christian sect, considered pederasty to be a VIRTUE. Their versions of Mark which told of Jesus’s homosexual exploits with young boys!
May 3rd, 2007 at 6:33 pm
Believe in yourself: Indeed there are still moral degenerates throught history and in modern day society in all shapes and forms (unfortunately including clergyman and people who claim to be Christians). Certainly am not arguing that. Don’t condescend on what I WISH. Perhaps your own experience with some Christans has been negative but you know nothing of me or “every” Christian to make a compartmentalized and persecuted call like that. Do I buy “The devil made me do it?” as an excuse for immoral or evil actions? Not at all but I do believe an idle mind is the devils playground and the difference between us is that you don’t believe in a literal devil and I do and I believe he has the power to persuade mankind of the ultimate lie, which is that God doesn’t exist and cannot be trusted…and I don’t care what you and your pals think of that.
Seekeroe: Carpocrates was a licentious charlaton whose claims were skewed and furthermore an excuse to act like the aforementioned degenerates. He and his followers had nothing to do with the true Christ. People have been skewing the Gospel of Christ for centuries and continue to, that’s nothing new and has even been foretold of in Biblical scripture.
May 3rd, 2007 at 6:50 pm
Just an observer:
Mark Twain wrote:
“O Lord our Father, our young patriots, idols of our hearts, go forth to battle — be Thou near them! With them — in spirit — we also go forth from the sweet peace of our beloved firesides to smite the foe. O Lord our God, help us to tear their soldiers to bloody shreds with our shells; help us to cover their smiling fields with the pale forms of their patriot dead; help us to drown the thunder of the guns with the shrieks of their wounded, writhing in pain; help us to lay waste their humble homes with a hurricane of fire; help us to wring the hearts of their unoffending widows with unavailing grief; help us to turn them out roofless with little children to wander unfriended the wastes of their desolated land in rags and hunger and thirst, sports of the sun flames of summer and the icy winds of winter, broken in spirit, worn with travail, imploring Thee for the refuge of the grave and denied it — for our sakes who adore Thee, Lord, blast their hopes, blight their lives, protract their bitter pilgrimage, make heavy their steps, water their way with their tears, stain the white snow with the blood of their wounded feet! We ask it, in the spirit of love, of Him Who is the Source of Love, and Who is the ever-faithful refuge and friend of all that are sore beset and seek His aid with humble and contrite hearts. Amen.”
May 4th, 2007 at 10:19 am
Seekeroe:
I think I see where you’re going with this. Honestly having never read this before myself, I don’t know the context in which it was written. My only thought on this is that I believe vengeance belongs to the Lord and not us (even though we take it upon ourselves sometimes) and He knows the true state and desires of our hearts, which cannot be hidden from Him.
But humankind (Christian and non-Christians) alike are ALL (myself included) guilty of bitterness and resentment at one time or another, which again comes down to choice. One can either let the fires of life burn or refine them. I choose to submit the fires of my life to my God and have personally experienced beauty from ashes as a result. Others have different ways of dealing with their fires.
May 4th, 2007 at 1:00 pm
Well obviously since the birth of christianity, all of those things have ceased to exist right?
And those following “christ” would never commit murder or do immoral things… right?
Morals have nothing to do with religion. Morals have evolved from social structures. Moral and altruistic behaviour promotes a healthy group dynamic, the cohesion and unity needed to survive under harsh conditions.
It’s funny, because you are basically pointing at societies who became extreme because of their particular religious cult.
Religion causes the fall of societies and dynasties apparently. When religion usurps our innate sense of right and wrong, everyone suffers. I suspect the foundation of religion is to explain the mysteries of the world and to control others with those explanations. I mean who has more power in a religious society than the shaman,iman or high priest when they speak directly to the gods.
Oh and here’s the testimony from the Kitzmiller v. Dover case…
It explains very clearly how macroevolution works and how ID and
irreducible complexity does not.
http://www2.ncseweb.org/kvd/exhibits/Padian/Padian_transcript.html
May 4th, 2007 at 4:16 pm
Steve C: Sure people who don’t believe in God have morals as do people who claim Christianity but behave contrarywise as I mentioned in statement #424. As far as your suggestions on the foundation of religion, I agree to an extent. Even in Biblical scripture Jesus chastised the Pharisees and others for “casting the first stone” and looking down their noses at those who sought to know Him but didn’t quite live up to their (the Pharisees) religious standards. In Matthew 7:3-5, Jesus states: “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brothers eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? Hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye and then you will see clearly to remove the spec from your brothers eye.”
Christians may have made this world a better or worse place to some but to me when we (mankind) take our focus off of the author and perfector of our faith and look to man for fulfillment, we are setting ourselves up for grave disappointment because we are ALL fallible and WILL let one another down which is why Gods grace is perfect.
How Good a Scientist Are You? http://www.khouse.org/articles/2002/441
I’m checking out for good now Steve C, Seekeroe and Believe in Yourself as it’s time for me to move on. We could go round and round on this subject forever and will probably never agree. I can only wish you each well and hope you take a seed of something different than what you’ve known with you. As for me, I am not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ and will go forth and continue to share with those who are willing to listen.
To quote Seekeroe “Cheers!”
May 5th, 2007 at 8:49 am
Just an observer,
Some thoughts for self-reflection on your journey:
“Man is the religious animal. He is the only religious animal. He is the only animal that has the True Religion – several of them. He is the only animal that loves his neighbor as himself and cuts his throat, if his theology isn’t straight. He has made a graveyard of the globe in trying his honest best to smooth his brother’s path to happiness and heaven.” Mark Twain
May 5th, 2007 at 11:39 am
It’s amazing to read so simple and elegant irony and then just mind-boggling to hear the justifications of the religious fanatics.
But it’s rarely even something resembling justification, mostly it’s just plain ignorace and emotional shouting.
But it’s weird how well it works! I saw even Richard Dawkins in his own film about god-crazy people shutting up when he asked something “controversial” from some modern rock-concert style “faith-center” type dude and this dude was just bombarding him with HYPNOTIC PATTERNS!!! The kind of word-sequences that don’t really make sense, if you TRY to think about them ( and poor Richard really was trying ) but they are designed to practically short-circuit your thought process, which in more mallable people results in amazement, in Richard it resulted him shutting up. Because he honestly tried to anwer to something while he was just bombarded with sleazy hypnotic patterns which try to invert your attention from issues at hand to your internal conflicts.
And this is mostly the technique: however shit you would feel about yourself, eigther after hypnotic patterning or because of such rationally critical observations, the next moment you can take this WONDERFUL FEELING inside of you, and feel JUST RIGHT about ANYTHING that you WANT.
Yes folks, it’s THAT simple!
Whatever fairitales you tell yourself about your gods, thechnically it’s just this wonderful feeling inside of you which lets you feel yourself just RIGHT. That’s why rational argumentation can’t “GET TO YOU”. That’s how you feel that YOU are RIGHT whatever else you hear: it’s because of this anchoring.
The god in your head is the FEELING of absolute right that you can use to MAKE right anything that you WANT. Of course you have still some morals too, so you mostly want more or less decent things to be right. But it’s the same FEELING that helps you to feel RIGHT about things that some ABSOLUTE AUTHORITY is commanding you to feel right about.
It’s your personal RIGHT to feel or know or think anything about this condition or programming you find yourself in, whether it’s god or just some very smart guys fucking with your brain, but I just gave you technical explanation.
I hope you are still able to think enough and remember enough about it in your normal waking state to discover the difference.
May 9th, 2007 at 5:57 am
“The great religious ages were notable for their indifference to human rights . . . not only for acquiescence in poverty, inequality, exploitation and oppression, but also for enthusiastic justifications for slavery, persecution, abandonment of small children, torture, and genocide. . . . Moreover, religion enshrined hierarchy, authority, and inequality. . . . It was the age of equality that brought about the disappearance of such religious appurtenances as the auto-da-fe and burning at the stake.”
Arthur Schlesinger Jr.
May 11th, 2007 at 7:35 am
To all you non-christians…when you come to the end of your life if your point of view is correct does any of this really matter? If the Christians point of view is correct…..GOOD LUCK!
May 11th, 2007 at 10:49 am
Hi achristian..
Do you understand, that there is no “almost correct guess” and “more correct guess” or even “totally wrong guess” in this matter? All we have are some wishful thinking and mindgames! In BOTH “points of view” there is a specific POINT in the story at which everything else is pure fantasy! SOME of it is drawing it’s inspiration from “wonderous unexplained things” that have really happened in history. We are nowhere close in any form or way of knowledge, that would give more credit to one or other THEORY howerer big amount of people there would be supporting it?! so as long there is nothing to COMPARE those guesses to, BOTH are damn guesses! It’s not like you can TELL whichone is acutally closer to something of a possible real-life experience. All you have is to trust your eyes and reason or shouting and happy feelings.
It’s sad, that it’s such a mighty contrast between those variants, but that’s life for you as we KNOW it. Becasue technically YOU DON’T KNOW what creates those feelings in you. There is a research into affecting brains with electromagnetic fields and ALL KINDS OF CRAZY FEELINGS pop out! Which basically tells us one of two things: God know exactly which parts of our brains to radiate with right frequency of radio waves to switch on the “god feeling” in us ( well, supposedly he built us, so he knows how to play around, right? ) OR the effect as such is purely local internal occurance of the brain to anchor some mystical feeling to some neurons fireing.. and that’s about as close you will ever get to your personal jesus.
Again: I DON’T KNOW which one or even IF one of those variants is true, but neighter do you, because of the tiny simple fact: you are human too.
May 11th, 2007 at 3:11 pm
Its awfully hard to understand what you are trying to say because you phraseology is so fragmented and vague, all I am trying to say is, if your thoughts and concepts are correct none of this makes any difference to me or you. If your thoughts are incorrect it makes a huge difference to you.
May 11th, 2007 at 7:47 pm
achristian,
Has it ever occurred to you that humans can live a moral life outside any religion? Proof: Confucius said: “Surely it is the maxim of loving-kindness: Do not unto others that you would not have them do unto you.” (circa 551-479 BC). This is what Jesus said half a millennium later.
To the present day. Given that USA is a Christian nation with many God-fearing followers, it also has capital punishment as the ultimate deterrence to reduce crimes and yet it is one of the countries with the highest rates of murderer and crimes in the world.
Why? Modern understanding of psychology has led educators/parents to no longer using canal punishment on their kids for it does not work in the long run- when their kids grow up.
The connection? Threat of eternal damnation is a uncivilised tool originated by primitive people to scare their followers into submission and set beliefs by the church.
Cheers
May 12th, 2007 at 4:29 am
“if your thoughts and concepts are correct none of this makes any difference to me or you. If your thoughts are incorrect it makes a huge difference to you.”
In eigther case there will be no difference. Because even if you are “more correct”, ask from from one of the OTHER countless religions, what will happen to YOU.
May 12th, 2007 at 6:07 am
If You need to believe,
‘..ask from from one of the OTHER countless religions, what will happen to YOU.’
Precisely.
If you also look at how many branches of Christianity there are in the world today and consider that every one of these branches professes to be the only true Christians but not the other lots, one can’t help but see how bl**dy arrogant and inward-looking these Christians are with self-righteousness.
Cheers
Hmm.
May 13th, 2007 at 4:07 pm
It’s true christianity or any other religion contains a convinient starting-package of morals, which is in no sense complete or sufficient. While it surely gets you started, to be boxed in by it is far worse than having no religion at all.
It’s like learning to play perfectly on piano with 10 keys. And then claiming all the other keys are only for blasphemous bastards.
And to be true believer sadly means by definition to be boxed in. All the talking about open hearts is actually perfect double-talk, the words and the meaning being perfectly opposite, talkers blinded with the words being clueless of the meaning. Perfectly blaming everybody else in things they are doing in the very same second, not even being aware of what or why they are doing. Perfect shield of ignorance, absolution from thinking, because they were TOLD the truth, what’s there to think any more? What’s left to do is to reject and ignore everything standing in the path of heaven and you’re home free!
Brilliant! Bonus feathers to your wings for every mindraped child.
May 29th, 2007 at 12:43 pm
So has anyone here heard of the Church of Google?
http://www.thechurchofgoogle.org/
June 9th, 2007 at 9:51 pm
My Christ (literally)! Atheists on average are probably more intelligent but this board proves that both can be stupid. A debate about god over a sign - amazing. If you want to debate, find somewhere online with people who want to think. This is just childish.
July 19th, 2007 at 4:04 pm
Universe is made of 2 latin words:
Uni & Verse
Uni means “Single”
Verse means “Spoken Sentance”
Universe = Single Spoken Sentance
The Single Spoken Sentance of Universe is “AND GOD SAID LET THERE BE…”
July 24th, 2007 at 2:32 pm
It’s funny how christians message is of love and yet we are the most persecuted in the world
July 24th, 2007 at 2:41 pm
To: If You need to believe, believe in yourself.
1. I’d like to know what morals were left out of the bible.
2. what part of “open hearted is double talk?
3. I read the bible, I know what I do and why I do.
July 27th, 2007 at 3:27 pm
I too feel Google is GOD…see how!!!
GOOGLE IS GOD
July 27th, 2007 at 3:33 pm
Aquisitions by GOOGLE since 2002…amazing thing!!!
See Google aquisitions
August 3rd, 2007 at 10:00 pm
Well, I am Christian, and I do believe in the creater, and the son, and hgoly spirit. Even if I am wrong i nmy beliefs, and God sint real, nothing happens, but if I am right, I will have eternal life. However, if you atheists are wrong, you go to hell, and if youre right nothing happens- which sounds better?
August 9th, 2007 at 8:25 pm
26.Response to number 26 in comments…
So where did gravity come from? How do you know to call it “gravity?” Who taught you about gravity? You learned it from a finite source who is much like yourself. So man became your god. The day man proves how the earth hangs out there on nothing, I’ll stop believing in the God of All Creation. I found out by getting a Bible and turning to Genesis, chapter 1. Many Scientists and experts went to the best schools and paid hundreds of thousands of dollars in tuition. They have studied for Milleniums and are still baffled. One day very soon God will show all of us who created all things. For untold numbers since Adam in the beginning, it will be a little bit too late.
August 10th, 2007 at 11:42 am
ok the sign is funny.
google= something the helps you find information. if you dont get the answers you wanted then you have to be a LITTLE more specific…DUH.
god= omnipotent, omniscent, thing that is said to excist but we have no idea as to if its true or not..only beliefe..soooooo
find something less stupid to complain about
August 10th, 2007 at 2:12 pm
Boring!!! this discussion is absurd. What does God and Google have in common? NOTHING!!!
I don’t see why you should all argue like crazy bitches about stuff that is not even related.
Get a life, seriously
August 11th, 2007 at 3:21 pm
very good one
August 16th, 2007 at 8:58 pm
Who da hell took my comments off?!
August 28th, 2007 at 5:29 pm
from this period of time on, Hell will recieve more souls than ever before.
believe and do not sin, or you shall burn
August 28th, 2007 at 8:44 pm
I see many complaints that this is silly. Questions such as whether God exists can certainly be silly, but not necessarily so. Sometimes, you get some insight on how other people think. People who hold a different belief. You will not likely be convinced, but you might learn something. It never hurts to understand other belief systems.
September 6th, 2007 at 2:40 am
I keep getting notifications that there is a new post, but I don’t see it. So far, the bit of text I get in the notification might explain the fact that it’s not showing up. Look, find a way to express your feelings and thoughts without being ugly. It might go a long way towards getting your stuff out there. If you have a point, and you put in some effort, you can probably do it without acting like a child who has just discovered crude language.
September 17th, 2007 at 6:03 am
She’s Here ! You Tube - SECOND COMING NOW http://www.hescomingsoon.com
http://www.blogger.com/profile/18377181318783206874
http://uk.360.yahoo.com/yhvh_on_line
AMONGST THE SEVEN CANDLE STICKS: JESUS CHRIST IS HERE
September 28th, 2007 at 10:51 am
Yeah, that is so true, but God can’t give you thousands of pages of PORN!!!!!
October 4th, 2007 at 4:41 pm
Dave Says:
‘Yeah, that is so true, but God can’t give you thousands of pages of PORN!!!!!’
And preachers with plenty of time on their hands will no doubt visit these sites in their own comfort room and may experience the carnal pleasure themselves. Comes Sunday, they preach to their congregations about morality of Christianity and all that jazz!
Case in point, about US$1 billions have been paid by the churches so far to victims of paedophilia committed by their own clergy.
Matthew 18:6 New American Standard Bible (©1995)
‘but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.’ They gave money instead.
Hmm